Author Topic: Con passes, turns and gains...how?  (Read 1556 times)

Offline mrblack

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2004, 02:31:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
On a side note, I love doing this to slimpikn as it's always guaranteed to make him cry cheater or hack.  But then he always cries cheater or hack.


ack-ack


LOL:rofl

Offline CavemanJ

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2004, 08:44:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
You underestimate the importance of timing, ded. Also, how fast the N1K2 turns at speed.

 If indeed the instance happens as you describe it, then what we should be seeing is a N1K2 coming in a perfect straight level merge, making a flat 180 turn, losing speed by the turn, and then, as he lines up behind you, actually gaining speed in an incredible state.

 Now that's something worthy to be called an anomaly or a bug.



This is my biggest complaint about the niktard.  There have been plenty of times where I've been in a shallow dive approaching a nik from his high 6.  The nik turns into me, and even pulls his nose up a little.  Knowing the HO is coming, and not going to engage in a turn fight. I'll roll around the HO and blow through, keeping my view on the nik.  I start a shallow climb, maybe 1000ft/min to keep my 350+ speed longer and watch the nik, at 500-600yds it's planform.  At 800-850yds it's nose on me, and usually starting spray and pray so I ease the nose down to about 500ft/min descent.  At 900-1000yds the niktard leaps forward like it's got a pair of RATO units, sometimes coming as close as 400yds before falling back again (and the only thing to save my pony here is if the niktard can't shoot).

I've been in a 70degree dive, at 350 true and accelerating rapidly when I pass a nik that had to climb at least 4-5000ft nearly vertical to try to HO, flop over when I pass, and catch me like I'm standing still.

The niktard is the only kite I consistently see this kind of crap from.  Lead turns don't account for these kinds of situations.  It's a dead horse I think, though...

Offline Kweassa

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2004, 12:19:15 PM »
I don't deny there "could" be something wrong with the N1K2. Anything's possible. Personally, I've also met situations which just urges to make the word "bullshi*!" pop out from one's mouth.

 However, it can never be emphasized enough that most of the 'impossible' instances aren't really impossible at all. If we take everyone's word for what happened to them, there's practicaly nobody who'd be shot down in the first place.

Offline empty

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2004, 08:54:40 PM »
The perception of the guy being shot down is always biased, my own included.

There are a couple of things that can occur that would look like the guy had rockets on his ride.

Figure the merge, if everyone is 350-450mph then you have closure at 700-900mph.  Network lag really becomes obvious.  A lot can happen at these speeds over 150msec (300msec counting his and yours).  This is where the timing thing happens.  A lot of folks start pulling up (vertical turn) right at the merge, sometimes you catch them starting early if they misjudge the e-state.  Gives you a good cold side shot if they do.  If their timing is good they are halfway through the turn at the time you pass them.  If they managed the vertical move well, they won't loose much velocity but they will gain enough altitude that an unloaded dive will allow them to match the speed.

Another thing is avoiding the head-on.  I see a lot of folks giving away position to avoid this.  I mean radically avoiding, providing a lot of vertical or horizontal seperation.  Ideally, you don't want to have more than 1/4 of the turn radius for seperation and less is better.  You really don't want to be shot in the face with a handful of 20mm either.  I usually try to pass under and to the side, just under a wing.  Its hard to push negative and make a shot.  The only times I've been hit doing this is by misjudging the bog's e-state, he's usually slower than I thought when he gets hits on this move.

It's hard to say what happened without being there in the cockpit, I will say that 400+ is a little slow with less than 6K AGL n a P51.  :D

IMHO,

Offline dedalos

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2004, 11:43:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
I don't deny there "could" be something wrong with the N1K2. Anything's possible. Personally, I've also met situations which just urges to make the word "bullshi*!" pop out from one's mouth.

 However, it can never be emphasized enough that most of the 'impossible' instances aren't really impossible at all. If we take everyone's word for what happened to them, there's practicaly nobody who'd be shot down in the first place.


K, I think I made it clear that I see this once or twice a month.  I also made clear that I can tell the diference between a plane turning and a plane looking for HO.  I don't understand what you are trying to defend here.  I was just wondering  if net lag can be the issue.  What is all this crap about having avidence of it happening and not taking our word for it?
:confused:
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Dead Man Flying

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2004, 02:20:46 PM »
Strange that I never encounter this phenomenon.  Is it perhaps because I recognize the onset of a lead turn and take the necessary measures to counter it?

-- Todd/Leviathn

(The answer to the above question is "Yes," BTW)

Offline Cobra412

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2004, 03:09:30 PM »
I got the same BS statement from someone in the MA yesterday but I won't name names.  He was in a 51D heading the opposite direction in a shallow climb.  I was in my usual Mk. IX at approximately coalt and 1.5k I started a shallow dive away.  I turned back in nose down at approximately 1k out then slipped up behind him.  He ofcourse screamed out BS on channel 1.  I think he had bombs on board too but not sure.  

Either way he could have countered by turning into me or nosing over when he saw the lead turn coming.  I get hit by this every now and then.  But if I see it early enough I'll just turn into there path.  Then ofcourse when the engagement is over get gripped at cause of an HO even though I don't fire unless absolutely necessary.

Offline Shane

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2004, 03:37:45 PM »
it's no fun if you don't name names.

:mad:
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
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Offline Kweassa

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2004, 02:59:49 AM »
Quote
K, I think I made it clear that I see this once or twice a month. I also made clear that I can tell the diference between a plane turning and a plane looking for HO. I don't understand what you are trying to defend here. I was just wondering if net lag can be the issue. What is all this crap about having avidence of it happening and not taking our word for it?


 
 Well, to put this 'crap' so you can understand it better:

 "come up with a film, or your claim means nothing."

Offline dedalos

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2004, 10:24:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Well, to put this 'crap' so you can understand it better:

 "come up with a film, or your claim means nothing."


lmao

I'll start filming everything from now on just so my claims can mean something to you.  After all, I do care about what you think.

lol
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Dead Man Flying

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2004, 06:17:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
I'll start filming everything from now on just so my claims can mean something to you.  After all, I do care about what you think.


Seeing as how HTC also requires film to substantiate any claims of cheating or strangeness, I think you should follow his advice.

It's not about caring what he thinks, it's about providing proof beyond conjecture.  No film, no proof.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline Tilt

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2004, 10:41:53 AM »
lag effects and the HO lead turn.

if you work this out the faster you are going compared to your adversary the worse it looks to you when he performs a good lead turn.

Lag produces the effect of you towing a target drone behind you.

The faster you go the further behind you the target is.

When you are both head on looking at each others targets the separation is the same for both of you. Even if you are at different speeds.

However due to your high speed your target is further behind you than his is behind him.

He will have some out of plain separation for the lead turn to work properly.

He will start his turn well before you  see the cross but he is leading your target location not your location.

As he performs the turn your target will move from being on the other side of your location to being on his side of your location his out of  plain separtion will  move to an in plain separation which will seem to close rapidly as the angle changes.

Equally if your target was 200 yards behind you before it is now 400 yards closer to him (relative to your location)than it was before.

The closest his target ever got to you was when it crossed your location as he was actually lead turning your target.

The greater the disparity in speeds the worse it seems. Lag in terms of time is the same which suits him. He can turn quicker at 200mph(assuming that is his BCS) and yet you see it no sooner.

The distance closure you see is a function of him closing the out of plain separation. The quicker he does 180  the worse this seems. Its not the speed of his AC its the speed of his turn. (ie degrees/sec are more important at this point than mph at this point)


Having said all this its still a very difficult manouvre to perform properly. It's basically a full g, blacked out brake turn with bogie well under his nose untill the last second.

Too early and you are warned. Do it way too early and  a barrel roll from you could deliver him an early bath.

Too late and he blew a load of e to no effect. (usual out come)

He has to judge the turn perfectly while blacked out.

He is praying you made no out of plain movement during his manouvre. (He can't see you)
Ludere Vincere

Offline dedalos

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2004, 11:42:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Seeing as how HTC also requires film to substantiate any claims of cheating or strangeness, I think you should follow his advice.

It's not about caring what he thinks, it's about providing proof beyond conjecture.  No film, no proof.

-- Todd/Leviathn


Agreed, if I was trying to prove something I would need a film.  But I am not.  I just mentioned that I see that happen once or twice a month (thats not a bad thing considering the time I spent in the game) and was wondering if net lag could cause it.  Thats all.  I was not complaining or attacking anyone.  I do the lead turn all the time and get killed by it a lot.  No need to explain to me what a lead turn is or tell me I don't have a case with no film.  It was just a simple question.

PS. I am nor reffering to you here:aok
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline TweetyBird

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Con passes, turns and gains...how?
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2004, 11:40:49 PM »
Just curious - a few posts stated they started their lead turns at 3-400 out. Are you all wired directly to HTC? Starting at 300-400, he'll be landed and admiring his k/d ration before I get around.
If I start later than 1.2 at 400ias, I'm not getting anything closer than 800-1000. How can you get a shot starting a lead turn at 3-400? I'm assuming you mean in a merge where there isn't a lot of side to side separation, cause thats kind of different.