Submarines in AH?

[streakeagle]

People seem to already be polarizing on the issue of submarines being added.

First, has anyone from HTC even mentioned adding submarines any time soon? I wouldn't whine about them wasting time adding submarines until they actually mention the possibility.

Second, after serving 8 years on submarines, I have very little desire to simulate being submerged. Of course, maybe I could put some of my professional target motion analysis skills to good use generating accurate solutions and killing carriers.

Third, for those who think submarines do not belong in a WWII flight sim: Submarines were exceptionally effective in WWII. They sank far more ships (especially in terms of tonnage) than planes and warships combined. The result of which was a determined effort to kill submarines. Submarines had the highest casualty rate of any service (even unescorted B-17s on deep daylight raids had better odds of survival). The number one killer of submarines by a large margin: aircraft. PBYs, TBFs, and even F4Fs/F6Fs from escort carriers were used to great effect to locate and destroy subs.

I would rather see the planeset grow first, but a sub is essentially a slow PT boat that can hide just beneath the surface. Aside from adding "depth" to the water and the ship artwork, I don't see where it would take a whole lot of time to add them. Without question, they most certainly belong in any WWII flight sim that includes naval aspects.

Note: In the name of realism, those that choose to use later German U-boats should be forced to surface, announce their position on the channel one buffer before attacking, and wait for allied aircraft to attack them. This simulates actual German tactics (report to HQ so a wolfpack could form to fight a convoy) and the fact that the allies broke their code and immediately dispatched patrolling aircraft to that position  

[Hangtime]

(stabs remote) "chit. How'd I get on this channel?" (stabs remote)

[Hangtime]

(stabs remote)

"Crap. Back here again"

Unnh...  If a sub got to periscope depth it'd be a sittin duck to any A/C short of a goon and be visible clearly both via wake effect and shading.. let alone icons. Easy meat fer a plane. But how would a DD detect it in the sim?

I ain't sayin don't model 'em in the sim, just sayin that if PT boats have beacon icons even at 'night' in AH, I'd suspect subs would be even more detectable. Life expectancy in hostile situation... nil. I guess pretty much like it was back then too.  

I'td sure be nice to see surface radar activated for the fleets.. I think it pretty strange we can use fleet radar to detect enemy air at 50 miles yet not even catch a hint of the opposing fleet even when it's already inside gun ranges...

(stabs remote)

[1776]

I wonder if those sweet young women at the bars would accept my invitation to view the sub races at my house?  

 

Ya, I vote for subs in AH!!

 

[streakeagle]

If sonar (or ASDIC per the Brits) is modeled correctly, it wouldnt help much. Sonar was very primitive. Listening was not effective for ships because they make too much noise, especially in a battle group or convoy. Active had a very short range and was useless in shallow water or after depth charges were detonated (air bubbles not only block sound path, but explosion and bubbles make a ton of noise that jams whole display for a long time). Basically, ships found subs only when they surfaced (or stuck up a periscope at the wrong place   ) or by following the torpedo bubble trails. Once a sub fired, if any warships saw the trails, they were in for a game of marco polo in with depth charges and oil slicks. As I said before (with a few rare exceptions), aircraft were the primary hunters and killers of subs in WWII. Subs could only go 300 or 400 feet deep back then. They leave a shadow and or a visible wake (depending on speed) at depths of 200 feet or less. To be fair, planes would have to fly almost directly overhead to see shadow and with any kind of sea state, the wake and shadow would be impossible to see unless they are broaching the surface or at periscope depth.

Note: While modern subs can and do go a little deeper, almost nothing has changed since WWII. The sonars are way better, but suffer many of the same limitations. Surface ships are still blind ( I went on a surface ship for a week to compare their sonar to ours... hee hee, they couldnt hear a torpedo unless it was about to hit   ). They rely on helicopters and airplanes, but the primary asw weapon today is another sub (now that they can hear each other and have torpedoes smart enough to find their depth).

[Lephturn]

I think subs are irrelevent, and I doubt HTC would ever model them.

It's all about speed and time investment.  Model the subs correctly and they would be pretty damn slow.  I don't think anybody would really drive them.

B'ah... spend the time making me another P-47 variant instead.  

[Yeager]

I once heard HT say he didnt want to model subs.

Later I heard him say he could if he wanted to and that it would be interesting to do.
Who knows.....I mean we are getting trains, we already have planes.  How about a JEEP?

Subs had a competative speed when surfaced.
I myself enjoy submarines and their history and think a *decent* representation of submarines would add to the game, if only for special events and lenghty sessions AFK.

Y

[Fastbikkel]

What about modelling an f-14?  

[popeye]

Subs would be perfect for those times when one is too drunk to fly.  

[streakeagle]

I am not especially in favor of wasting programming time on adding submarines, but given what already exists and is planned for the future, I am not against their being added either. The people demanding subs are certainly a minority, but I have seen more posts requesting subs than I ever did for PT boats.

While I doubt I would want to mess with submarine operations with any frequency, I also don't care for driving tanks, manning flak, and shore bombardment/fleet control. Yet, you won't find one post from me complaining about the planeset being incomplete or some eyecandy that could have been added if time had not been wasted adding features I don't want or need. Subs would certainly be more exciting to fight than trains. To each his own.

Submarines could play as critical a role as any of the other non-flying vehicles: they could approach and kill a carrier and/or its escorts undetected. They could also launch a rubber raft with 10 troops for covert amphib assaults on undefended coastal bases.

As far as speed goes, a submarine on the surface is faster than a tank over hilly ground. I doubt there is a shortage of people willing to spend 30 minutes or more driving to assault bases in vehicles or get to altitude in bombers. Why not a group of dedicated sub guys who spend their time lying in wait to assault carrier groups?

I like the diversity of people and interests provided by AH, even if my own interests are focused on ACM. Except for the limit on the number of players, I think WWIIOnline has a lot of catching up to do before they will be able to equal AH's potential to be the best all-around WWII sim, and AH just keeps getting better.

[LtHans]

What about modelling an f-14?

Thats not a bad idea.  I could switch to a jet combat sim, though I would prefer a 1950-60s era, when the missles were not too hot and you had to manuever into position to get the most out of them.

Imagine the F4 Phantom using the rear cockpit position for radar and missle locks.  Two players as a two seater crew sounds fun to me.

Still, the missles do take alot of the fun out of it sometimes.  Any idjit can lauch one.

Hans.

[Pepe]

I think Subs could work VERY well.

Spawning in Subs should be point-independent, favouring a coordinates approach. You should be able to spawn wherever in the sea, thus sub drivers should need first a spotting on the TG. Then they could spawn in terms of coordinates, for instance, spawn at 7.10.5, and the system would place the sub at that point, given there is enough separation with the TG, let's say farther than 5 miles radius circle. Subs spawns in surface, with visible Icon until it dives.

Of course, we would need depth charges & sonar modelled into PT's & DD's to counter  

Cheers,

[DanielMcIntyre]

Gator class submarines could do around 10 knots submerged, 21 surfaced. When you take into account that uboats / submarines in WW2 usually only submerged to make an attack / escape an attack then 21 knots is not bad, not much slower then the 30 - 35 knots cv's generally operated at.

The gator and later submarines could dive to around 450 feet leaving no wake and no shadow depedent of course on weather conditions / sunlight and position of observer ie plane directly above sub.

A submarine would definitly be imo a great addition to AH but would take some serious modeling / art and programming to be done correctly.

Be cool ta be able to make depth charge run with one of those destroyers or torpedo attack surfaced or shallow sub with PT boat

chow  

[Gunthr]

Hmm, shipping, ie merchant marine, etc could be woven into the strat. Sub vs sub could be interesting. I think I could have fun in an
Unterseeboot.

[Wlfgng]

For the record, icons would be a problem if they were always visible... however, it makes sense that if a sub was below the surface then the icon for it would vanish as well.

Once it's on the surface though....

It might be interesting having subs in this fasion.