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Author Topic: Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all  (Read 751 times)

Offline dynamt

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« on: February 03, 2004, 03:20:10 PM »
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Offline Halo

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2004, 05:41:12 PM »
Extremely interesting and one of the most readable battleship comparisons ever.  Surprising conclusions, and surprising that the Richelieu was so formidable (obviously I know next to nothing about the Richelieu).
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Offline OIO

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2004, 01:16:24 PM »
wasnt the vittorio venetto, the bismark and the british BB and the Yamato all built before the start or just after the start of the war while the iowa and the dakota class were significantly upgraded right after pearl?

a rather unfair comparison if so.
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Offline Sikboy

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2004, 01:29:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OIO
wasnt the vittorio venetto, the bismark and the british BB and the Yamato all built before the start or just after the start of the war while the iowa and the dakota class were significantly upgraded right after pearl?

a rather unfair comparison if so.


Yamato- Dec 1941
Iowa- Feb 1943
Bismarck- Aug. 1940
Richelieu- Jul 1940
KGV - Dec 1940
Vittorio Veneto- Apr-1940
South Dakota- March 1942

From http://www.hazegray.org

They were all completed between April 1940, and Feb of 1943

-Sik
« Last Edit: February 04, 2004, 01:32:41 PM by Sikboy »
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Offline Kweassa

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2004, 01:47:39 PM »
Sikboy, think of the changes and advancements in aircraft performance between 1940 and 1943.

 Hurricane Is, SpitIs, Bf109Es against P-47Cs, 109Gs, Fw190s, Spit9s, La-5FNs and Yak-9s.

 I'm unfamiliar with the evolutionary table of heavy ships, but should we expect anything different?
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Offline Sikboy

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2004, 02:17:22 PM »
Hmmm.


I wasn't really attaching any meaning one way or the other to the fact that they were all within 3 years of one another.

There were some major advances during that time, most noteably the emphasis on AAA and Shipborne Radar.

From that perspective, I can deffinately see there being a big difference, however unlike Aircraft, you would generally refit new systems onto old Ships. I mean the Brits still had pleanty of WWI Era Battleships floating around the world, which had been more or less modernized.

With all that said though, I don't see how the North Carolina (comishoned in April, 1941) would have faired any worse than the South Dakota.

-Sik
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Offline Sikboy

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2004, 02:29:55 PM »
The Author of the site takes some time to go over stuff like this in the FAQ

http://www.combinedfleet.com/b_FAQ.htm

Worthwhile read.

Interesting, he seems to get a lot of KM hatemail lol.

-Sik
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Offline Sakai

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2004, 06:01:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OIO
wasnt the vittorio venetto, the bismark and the british BB and the Yamato all built before the start or just after the start of the war while the iowa and the dakota class were significantly upgraded right after pearl?

a rather unfair comparison if so.


It's only unfair because the Italian and German ship designs sucked.  Bismarck had this badboy rep but was a fat pig in the water and wasn't the best design, simply had extra crap stuffed onto it.  Her base layout was a remodeled Jersey-Guernsey, or Holstein.  Can't recall which.  

Iowa was a great design.  

From what I recall, many opine that the Iowas were no match for Yamato, the USN always felt (and I am pulling this off the top of my head from my poor memory), always felt their fire control gave them an edge and they would take their ships over the Japanese in a surface fight.  Yamato was like 20K larger tha Iowa, but raw size was all she had going for her.  

Japanese sailors were quite good, but in surface engagements not ruled by torpedoes, US sailors did pretty good.  

Sakai
« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 06:18:21 PM by Sakai »
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Offline Widewing

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2004, 11:52:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sakai
It's only unfair because the Italian and German ship designs sucked.  Bismarck had this badboy rep but was a fat pig in the water and wasn't the best design, simply had extra crap stuffed onto it.  Her base layout was a remodeled Jersey-Guernsey, or Holstein.  Can't recall which.  

Sakai


Bismarck was based upon the Baden/Bayern class dreadnoughts of WWI. Generally considered to be a middling design by late 1930s standards.

My regards,

Widewing
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Widewing

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Offline Angus

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2004, 01:12:55 PM »
And the record hit vs.a moving target in WW2 was by HMS Warspite, a WW1 construction with the good old 15" naval gun. Range 26 Km!
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Offline Sikboy

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2004, 02:18:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
And the record hit vs.a moving target in WW2 was by HMS Warspite, a WW1 construction with the good old 15" naval gun. Range 26 Km!



Wow that's very cool (big fan of the Warspite here, even named by car after her lol) When and where did this happen?

-Sik
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Offline Steve

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2004, 02:38:54 PM »
At the Battle of Calabria on 9 July 1940 she hit the Italian flagship, Guilio Cesare, at the amazing range of 21 kilometres.


from the link:


http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/3515.html
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Offline Angus

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2004, 03:10:00 PM »
Funny, I may have 2 things wrong, or not?
I remember 26 KM at capa Matapan, may be wrong there.
I also thought that Barham was a King V class.
But again, what do I know.....I'll have a look.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Widewing

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2004, 04:55:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Funny, I may have 2 things wrong, or not?
I remember 26 KM at capa Matapan, may be wrong there.
I also thought that Barham was a King V class.
But again, what do I know.....I'll have a look.


Barham was one of the Queen Elizabeths, as was Warspite. All of the ships in this class were launched between 1912 and 1916. Barham underwent a major refitting during 1930 thru 1933, but not modernized after that. Warspite was completely rebuilt just prior to WWII.

The range of Warspite's remarkable (and probably very lucky) hit was 26,400 yards.

My regards,

Widewing
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My regards,

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Offline MiloMorai

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Iowa and S. Dakota best BBs of them all
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2004, 06:27:25 PM »
Did not a German ship get  some long range hits off of Norway?
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