Author Topic: P51  (Read 2123 times)

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
P51
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2004, 10:21:25 AM »
I have almost no experience in P-51Ds.

 However, I have some experience fighting them.

 As a 109 flyer, I can say that the dumbest P-51D tactics against a 109 is a straight forward BnZ attack which comes down and immediately goes up after. All 109s, even the lesser Gs like the G-2 or the G-6, can neutralize the alt advantage the P-51D holds very quickly.

 Lure a P-51D into a shallow spiralling dive down to 400mph, and roll out of his sights at the last moment. If he climbs immediately upwards, the 109 can catch him going up unless his attack pass was something higher than 500mph. About up to 70~80mph speed difference, the 109 can close the gap.

 That means, the most fearful P-51Ds I've countered are those  who don't do that. Particularly P-51D pilots with good gunnery, are a menacing experience to fight against.

 Those P-51D pilots don't just come straight down and run straight up in a long, dull straight line. What they do, is they maneuver and carefully position themselves right on top of my head, pressuring me to a very uncomfortable state.

 When I see a P-51D at 6Oc position, coming down to me in  a shallow angle from distances more than 3.0k out, I actually feel comfortable with that.

 But when I see a P-51D right above my head at 3.0k circling around, maneuvering so he always stays right on top of me, instead of my 6 or high 6, that freaks me out.

 It's because I can't force anykind of meaningful overshoot when he comes down from that position and angle. Also, since he will be coming straight down to me from the top of my head, it's impossible to turn into him and force him into a high speed, high deflection front-quarter shot. Those shots are usually very hard to land. Aggressive tactics against a BnZing enemy plane usually requires the defender to turn and meet his every attack - I can't do that if he's coming straight down from the top.

 ..

 So, I naturally try to gain some distance, and move away into a position where I can see him at my 6 or high 6 Oc. A good P-51D pilot knows that fact, and he will always try to deny me the chance to do so. Staying at the top of my head.

 And when he sees an opportunity, he drops down. Because I couldn't lure him into a long spiralling chase, I can't neutralize the differences in E states. While I am squirming around, trying  to lose him from the top of my plane(can't build enough speed), he dives in from a high angle(builds large speed).

 The result is, I can't follow him up in that case. Every pass he makes, is like that - it's incredibly annoying and incredibly nervous to see an enemy who does that.

Offline slimm50

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
P51
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2004, 12:36:31 PM »
About the onlyest thingI could add is you should pick your fight carefully, at first, anyway. Charging in hell-for-leather the way I do sometimes, with little or no SA, is a sure way to die quickly with 1 or 2 kills at best, and no kills at worst. My best success comes after I've upped sufficiently away from the action to get to preferred alt and look around a bit. I've tried bouncing people from 24K...that's just no good. Best alt, as has been said by WT et al is between 10 and 15 K agl. Below 12K I can do better than hold my own against Corsairs (my favorite matchup in a Pony).

In short, when flying the Pony, be patient.

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
P51
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2004, 12:38:18 PM »
Interesting post, Kweassa. That 109 zoom capability is quite something. I was once even able to zoom up in my G10 behind a 163 and catch up to it and nail it.

You talked about a 109 v P51 dogfight. Can you produce a film to illustrate what you said in your post above? Not casting doubt on what you said; I'd just like to see it in action.

Offline WldThing

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
P51
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2004, 12:56:24 PM »
Historical matchups are my favorite battles,  nothing better to see is an LW in flames and headed towards the ground :D

Offline TweetyBird

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1775
P51
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2004, 01:08:56 PM »
Speaking of "fancy pilot stuff" , there's a move where it looks like the pilot is starting a loop but he goes up sideways (i.e., his flight path is turned perpindicular to the target's)and rolls back behind the the target. I've seen WT do this with a plane on his 6, and the other day, Urchin did it to me on the merge. It looked like he was starting a lead turn but instead his plane was sideways and he just rolled over on me as I was comming up in my loop.

Now I've be trying to practice this, but I get very disoriented when I try to turn the plane perpindicular to the the targets path while I'm going up. Any hints about this move, and does it have a name?

If my description is off, and you don't understand what I mean, I can post a little diagram.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2004, 01:11:23 PM by TweetyBird »

Offline dedalos

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8052
P51
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2004, 02:12:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird
Speaking of "fancy pilot stuff" , there's a move where it looks like the pilot is starting a loop but he goes up sideways (i.e., his flight path is turned perpindicular to the target's)and rolls back behind the the target. I've seen WT do this with a plane on his 6, and the other day, Urchin did it to me on the merge. It looked like he was starting a lead turn but instead his plane was sideways and he just rolled over on me as I was comming up in my loop.

Now I've be trying to practice this, but I get very disoriented when I try to turn the plane perpindicular to the the targets path while I'm going up. Any hints about this move, and does it have a name?

If my description is off, and you don't understand what I mean, I can post a little diagram.


I use it with the LA7.  Don't know what is called but sometimes, I simply cannot find the other guy after move.  Sometimes he is just sitting nice and slow in front of me.  I started doing it when my stick had a problem and when pulling up it would also make my plane turn, lol.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline WldThing

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
P51
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2004, 02:21:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird
Speaking of "fancy pilot stuff" , there's a move where it looks like the pilot is starting a loop but he goes up sideways (i.e., his flight path is turned perpindicular to the target's)and rolls back behind the the target. I've seen WT do this with a plane on his 6, and the other day, Urchin did it to me on the merge. It looked like he was starting a lead turn but instead his plane was sideways and he just rolled over on me as I was comming up in my loop.


Yes i know what your talking about :)   Were just pulling off a reversal,  a mere barrel roll thats gentle but yet helps get on your 6.  As the con is coming closer with more speed,  he is subject to passing by faster than me,  so i go up sideways,  and i know he cant move with all that speed so i can pull up sharper and roll onto him before he even knows im there.  Some cons against this move is that you do slow down alot,  but nonetheless you do get a quick snapshot.

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
P51
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2004, 02:36:23 PM »
Nice advice about the convergence, WT. I will bear that in mind. But my plane for this tour is going to be the P38L - convergence not a factor. I got quite a few kills in it last night, and one death (compression/lawndart) after I had released rockets in another "risk free" pass on a GV position. Flippin' eck, the guns on that P38 are powerful.

beet ... are you using combat trim or manual trim on the P38?

 The reason I ask is that I took some P38 lessons from Delirium and Silat, and the first thing they told me was to use manual trim ONLY. Lawndarting/compression is always a concern with the P38 but not so much when you are trimming it out manually. Also, when trimming manually, that plane is a locomotive in the sky ... big and powerful ... combat trim on ... I think I remember Silat saying something to the effect ... "Its like flying a bus".
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
P51
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2004, 02:55:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
Nice advice about the convergence, WT. I will bear that in mind. But my plane for this tour is going to be the P38L - convergence not a factor. I got quite a few kills in it last night, and one death (compression/lawndart) after I had released rockets in another "risk free" pass on a GV position. Flippin' eck, the guns on that P38 are powerful.

beet ... are you using combat trim or manual trim on the P38?

 The reason I ask is that I took some P38 lessons from Delirium and Silat, and the first thing they told me was to use manual trim ONLY. Lawndarting/compression is always a concern with the P38 but not so much when you are trimming it out manually. Also, when trimming manually, that plane is a locomotive in the sky ... big and powerful ... combat trim on ... I think I remember Silat saying something to the effect ... "Its like flying a bus".
Slap - unfortunately, I'm only able to use combat trim because I have no trim slider on my stick. It'll be OK; I had much the same problem with 109s, and would hit the "trim to speed" button when I saw that I was about to lawndart. That would pull the nose up faster than I could raise it with elevator.

Offline slimm50

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
P51
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2004, 03:13:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Slap - unfortunately, I'm only able to use combat trim because I have no trim slider on my stick. It'll be OK; I had much the same problem with 109s, and would hit the "trim to speed" button when I saw that I was about to lawndart. That would pull the nose up faster than I could raise it with elevator.


What about using the "I", "K", "J", "L",  ",", "." keys on your kb?

Offline Sway

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 511
P51
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2004, 03:43:54 PM »
Have him stop by also, I need a second chance. :D

Offline WldThing

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
P51
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2004, 03:52:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sway
Have him stop by also, I need a second chance. :D


lmao..

I dueled to prove something back in the old days Laz,  dont do it anymore ;)  Since i dont need to :)

Offline killnu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3056
P51
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2004, 03:57:51 PM »
Slap, i fly with combat trim on all the time.  i have heard the same tho about it, fly with it off that is.  i just havent had any problems with it on.  
~S~
Karma, it follows you every where you go...

++The Blue Knights++

Offline Sway

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 511
P51
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2004, 06:16:34 PM »
I don't have anything to prove either.. except to you ;)

Offline WldThing

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
P51
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2004, 06:18:57 PM »
Yes..  You you rock Lazer,  you super uber pilot you.  See?  I didnt even have to duel you to tell yas that ;)