Author Topic: Reagan speech...  (Read 784 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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Reagan speech...
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2004, 04:42:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by weaselsan
Funniest story I ever read was how Ronnie's boys tricked
   the Russians into blowing up their own Trans Siberian
   Pipeline.......Largest non nuclear explosion ever seen from
   space.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/02/opinion/02SAFI.html

The beginning of the end of the Cold war. You can only steal so much technology before it catches up with you ;)

Offline LePaul

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Reagan speech...
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2004, 08:22:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/02/opinion/02SAFI.html

The beginning of the end of the Cold war. You can only steal so much technology before it catches up with you ;)


FYI...Requires you to be a subscriber/sign up, Rip

Offline miko2d

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Reagan speech...
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2004, 03:22:26 PM »
Gunslinger: I liked how he made a good deal with opec to open the pipelines...

 Does not sound too plausible to me for a variety of reasons. Not looking to get into an argument here - do you have any references where I could check the details for my own curiocity.


The pipeline software that was to run the pumps, turbines and valves was programmed to go haywire... The result was the most monumental non-nuclear explosion and fire ever seen from space.

 While I was in college back in USSR in mid 80s, I worked for a year at the company writing controller software for Trans-Siberian pipeline. I also have friends that were working in oil-pumping industry in Siberia. From what I know of programming and the state of technology in USSR, that story seems incredible to me.

 First, I doubt that even at this time, let alone in 70s there was off-the shelf software that could be bought or stolen to run an extremely customised and disparate collection of hardware that soviets were using.
 Also, software was small (killobytes of assembly) and engineering time was cheap (in 1989 the salary of an engineer/programmer was 140 rubles a month while a PC-XT sold for 14,000 rubles). Reverse-engineering stolen code to figure out what it did would not be a big deal and training a good programmer from any technology engineer - which were abundant in USSR would have taken few month if there was lack of programmers. Russians had problems making chips, not writing software or designs.
 As for the explosion - there were lakes of oil from horizon to horizon spilled from leaking pipelines all over Siberia and the leaking gas would have powered a european country. There were so many explosions and fires every year that CIA would have hard time figuring out which one it caused, if it did.
 It probably selected one of the biggest "natural" explosions and invenited the whole scheme with software.


=============================================
 As for Reagan, he compromised too much and was subject to bad influences in important matters.
 John Sears persuaded Reagan to run his 1980 campaign as a supply-sider, backing the Kemp-Roth tax cuts.
 Sears' strategy of skipping Iowa and concentrate on tax issues worked brilliantly, but he was fired on the day of the New Hampshire primary (which proved a great victory with more to follow) due to the influence of his detractors, including Nancy Reagan.
 Then instead of taking Jack Kemp as his vice-president, he took George HW Bush - his main opponent, the candidate of establishment who did not understand or shared Reagan's views but disparaged them constantly.
 He lowered taxes but did not cut spending, so the power and extent of the state increased. His lower-tax rate/higher revenue scheme seemed as its goal extracting as much money as possible from the economy for the state, not cutting the state as he promised.

 What we have now is the following sorry situation. The enemies of his conservative policies on republican side - Bush & Co. have no problem presenting Reagan as a greatest hero for things he had nothing to do with, like the end of communist regime in Soviet Union - unless he somehow caused death of several soviet leaders in early 80s so that MG could come to power.
 The same republicans carefully forget about his message of reducing the grasp of government.
 At the same time they - and democrats - use Reagan's fallacies of unbalanced budgets and "deficits do not matter" as justification for their own actions.
 So the cult of Reagan does nore harm than good to his cause. The real Reagan is in the article I posted, not the "single-handedly won the (so-called) Cold War" borrower and spender.

 miko

Offline Arlo

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Reagan speech...
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2004, 04:14:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger


ГИМН СОВЕТСКОГО СОЮЗА

Союз нерушимый республик свободных
Сплотила навеки Великая русь
Да здравствует созданный волей народов
Единый, могучий Советский Союз!

   Славься, Отечество наше свободное,
   Дружбы народов надежный оплот!
   Знамя советское, знамя народное
   пуст от победы к победе ведет!

Сквозь грозы сияло нам солнце свободы,
И Ленин великий нам путь озарил:
Нас вырастил Сталин - на верность народу,
на труд и на подвиги нас вдохновил!

   Славься, Отечество наше свободное,
   Дружбы народов надежный оплот!
   Знамя советское, знамя народное
   пуст от победы к победе ведет!

Мы армию нашу растили в сраженьях.
Захватчиков подлых с дороги сметем!
Мы в битвах решаем судьбу поколений,
Мы к славе отчизну свое поведем!

В победе бессмертных идеи коммунизма
Мы видим грядущее нашей страны,
И красному знамени славной Отчизны
Мы будем всегда беззаветно верны!

   Славься, Отечество наше свободное,
   Дружбы народов надежный оплот!
   Знамя советское, знамя народное
   пуст от победы к победе ведет!


 


I certainly must not have the correct international font on this end. Just looks like alot of "aieeee aieeee aieeee aieeee" to me. :lol

Offline Gunslinger

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Reagan speech...
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2004, 05:17:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
I certainly must not have the correct international font on this end. Just looks like alot of "aieeee aieeee aieeee aieeee" to me. :lol


that's actually what it looks like on the website.  They have a jpg that has the actual script but i wont even pretend to be able to read it.

Miko I'll look around to see were I read that.  I just remember seeing somthing about reagan visiting opec and the russians were pissed about their output.

Offline Sixpence

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Reagan speech...
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2004, 05:33:24 PM »
Is Miko saying reagan wanted more power to the states?.........:rofl

And lowered taxes??....:rofl
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline miko2d

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Reagan speech...
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2004, 07:33:18 PM »
Sixpence: Is Miko saying reagan wanted more power to the states?.........:rofl
And lowered taxes??....:rofl


 If you could quote what statements of mine prompted those lines, I might be able to understand what the heck you are talking about. :)


Gunslinger: Miko I'll look around to see were I read that. I just remember seeing somthing about reagan visiting opec and the russians were pissed about their output.

 I would not put it past him to just want cheaper oil for US and western Europe. Also, I cannot think of anything good - as in "not evil" - that he could have offered them in return.

 miko

Offline Gunslinger

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Reagan speech...
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2004, 11:18:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Sixpence: Is Miko saying reagan wanted more power to the states?.........:rofl
And lowered taxes??....:rofl


 If you could quote what statements of mine prompted those lines, I might be able to understand what the heck you are talking about. :)


Gunslinger: Miko I'll look around to see were I read that. I just remember seeing somthing about reagan visiting opec and the russians were pissed about their output.

 I would not put it past him to just want cheaper oil for US and western Europe. Also, I cannot think of anything good - as in "not evil" - that he could have offered them in return.

 miko


Miko here's a good read.  It doesnt prove my comment completly but a good either way:
http://www.museletter.com/archive/cia-oil.html



Quote
This much is clear and undisputable. Less clear is what was done with the information. Soon after assuming office in 1981, the Reagan Administration abandoned the established policy of pursuing dйtente with the Soviet Union and instead instituted a massive arms buildup; it also fomented proxy wars in areas of Soviet influence, while denying the Soviets desperately needed oil equipment and technology. Then, in the mid-1980s, Washington persuaded Saudi Arabia to flood the world market with cheap oil. Throughout the last decade of its existence, the USSR pumped and sold its oil at the maximum possible rate in order to earn foreign exchange income with which to keep up in the arms race and prosecute its war in Afghanistan. Yet with markets awash with cheap Saudi oil, the Soviets were earning less even as they pumped more. Two years after their oil production peaked, the economy of the USSR crumbled and its government collapsed.


Offline Sixpence

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Reagan speech...
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2004, 02:52:14 AM »
Sorry, I assumed when the founding fathers thing was in there, you might have been leading to the states rights to make it's own laws thing. And I had to laugh, because one of the things I remember most was how reagan blackmailed the states to make them raise their drinking age to 21. He threatened to cut off highway funds to any state that did not raise the age. Sure, make your own laws, but if we don't like them, we will cut off any federal money we can.

 When congress told him he couldn't fund a civil war in central america, he sold arms to terrorists to fund it. Did he mention the founding fathers when he was questioned about it? No, he forgot. Fate can be pretty ironic sometimes.

He said he wouldn't raise taxes. Then he quadrupled your social security payments and stole the money to fill the gaping holes in his budget. So........he raised taxes!!

Now I'm not saying reagan was all bad, he lifted the American spirit when it needed it badly. But I thought Bush Sr was a better pres, and no one calls him great.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Reagan speech...
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2004, 04:46:37 AM »
Ronnie loves ya sixpence...

Offline miko2d

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Reagan speech...
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2004, 08:06:04 AM »
Gunslinger: Miko here's a good read.  It doesnt prove my comment completly but a good either way...

 Thatks, Gunslinger.
 That link explains how the "cult of Reagan" is being bulit attributing to him stuff he did not do and that was at best tangential to his primary goals. The information there does not seem to correspond to reality.
 The USSR was a (mostly) socialist country - which means it was very inefficient economically. Inefficient does not mean that something is totaly missing - just that it's not as good or cheap as it could be. On the other hand USSR could dedicate much greater fraction of its GDP to the needs of the state. In US most of the GDP is "wasted" on such trivial things as comfort of the population - good food, housing, cars, leisure and entertainment, healthcare. Not so in USSR - population living in comfort would be less manageable, so they (government) probably would not want the wealth if they could have it.

Reagan Administration abandoned the established policy of pursuing dйtente with the Soviet Union and instead instituted a massive arms buildup

 Cold War was not a real war but an armed standoff. In real war one has to match the capabilities of the enemy, hence expenses. In standoff - especially when both sides have enough weapons for a massive overkill, such is not necessarily the case. The "massive arms buildup" on american side could have resulted in zero effect to soviet side. They could have regretted it come the real war, but nobody was planning on fighting for real. Nobody ever knew - or could know - how much USSR spent on arms. Even they did not know because under socialism the monertary economic calculation is not possible.

while denying the Soviets desperately needed oil equipment and technology

 Desperately? Soviets were pumping oil in 1920s. Surely they could reproduce the 50-year old pumping and pipeline technology. It is a fact that soviet energy sector was running on domestic equipment. Not as good as american but quite functional. Labor was free, talent was abundant - and that compensates for many mechanical deficiencies.

foreign exchange income with which to keep up in the arms race and prosecute its war in Afghanistan

 They needed foreign exchange income to support anti-american movements abroad, pay spies for the technology they stole from the west in massive amounts and to buy some equipment that they could not manufacture as well. Also for grain imports and such.
 Why they heck would they need foreign currency to prosecute its war in Afghanistan? The soldiers were free, the equipment was domestic - and the workers making it also mostly free.

Two years after their oil production peaked, the economy of the USSR crumbled and its government collapsed.

 The economy of the USSR did not "collapse". I was there. And it is still there. The government did not collapse either. It was dissolved from above due to political reasons of the ruling elite.
 Then the economy really got disrupted due to the break in many production links - after the Soviet Union seased to exist. Even at the lowest point of the post-soviet decline it woould be hard to call their economy as "collapsed".
 It is totally silly to attribute the changes that happened to the Soviet Union to the insignificant effect the oil prices could have on its GDP - rather than M. Gorbachev coming to power.
 It is also silly to attribute the drastic drop in oil prices to anything but the disarray and greediness of OPEC members cheating on their own quote agreements.


Sixpence: And I had to laugh, because one of the things I remember most was how reagan blackmailed the states to...

 Right, after
Quote
This is the issue of this election: Whether we believe in our capacity for self-government or whether we abandon the American Revolution and confess that a little intellectual elite in a far-distant capital can plan our lives for us better than we can plan them ourselves.
what he did was totally opposite to what he professed.
 He said one thing, did the opposite to gain some short-term compromise and discredited his views and their true supporters. That's why he is touted as the guy who "won the cold war" instead of the guy who set out to defeat his own government's tyrany and failed.

Quote
Robert P. Murphy: The legacy of Ronald Reagan was arguably worse than Bill Clinton's precisely because Reagan (allegedly) stood for small government. So when deficits and the number of crack addicts went through the roof during the '80s, liberal Democrats could plausibly blame "tax and budget cuts," even though the latter were nonexistent and the former were mostly shell games of fancy terminology (like "closing loopholes" and "revenue enhancement").


 miko