It's Just Not Fair!!!

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Bush = Not served in the US military with honour and distinction.

So to be president you have to earn some medals anfd then fake throwing them away like Kerry?

Are you hitting the crack pipe?

Bush = Not served in the US military with honour and distinction = Thrawn thinks that thinks that a US President must have served in the US military with honour and distinction.


Dude.  You are making making up obvious lies about what I didn't say.  And trying to force a straw man rebuttal to boot.  Go hit the books some more.  Have you taken a critical thinking course yet?

[Airhead]

Well, I don't want to delve into the nuts and bolts of tis thing ecause I'm quite intoxicated, but my only question is- Are the trains going to run on time?

Really, that's my only coincxern. as long as Crown Royal is undeer twenty bucks a fifth. That is.  Hic.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Yeager
No sarcasm.  Bush should have volunteered for combat duty in the active Air Force.

Bush DID volunteer for Vietnam. The program he was qualified for ended before he became eligible. The plane Bush was qualified in was at the end of its useful life with the Air Force and the Guard. It was also totally unsuitable for use in the war in Vietnam. Bush is by far not the only pilot in the Guard at the time who was given an early out rather than being retrained on another plane. It was at the time exceedingly common for Guard pilots whose planes were being phased out to be given an early honorable discharge. It was also very common for Guard members, especially officers, to be given transfers and lax duty assignments in deference to the careers outside the Guard. Bush was eligible to be called up with his unit at any time, Guard units WERE called up to Vietnam, especially after Johnson decided not to run for re-election. The fact that his unit was never called up had nothing to do with Bush or his father.


I figure it like this: Duke Cunningham (Navy ace from the Vietnam War, believed to have shot down the top North Vietnamese ace), a decorated veteran, finds Kerry's actions after he left the war to be totally unacceptable. Considering Cunningham's record in the war, after the war, and as an elected member of the legislative branch, I respect his opinion of Kerry, far more than I respect Kerry's opinion of himself, or his opinion of Bush. Cunningham thinks Kerry is a dirtbag, I'm inclined to agree, especially in light of the fact that every Vietnam veteran I know holds the same opinion of Kerry and his war record, and his actions after the war.

[Holden McGroin]

From 1968-69, 12,000 Army Guardsmen and 10,511 Air Guardsmen were called to serve their country. Over 9,500 Guardsmen were sent to Vietnam, earning over 4,000 decorations during the conflict.

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Bush DID volunteer for Vietnam.

No...Bush volunteered to go to Europe for a 6 month rotation (where I'm sure he would have enjoyed the topless beaches on the Riviera). Bush's squadron's participation in Palace Alert in Southeast Asia concluded 3 months before Bush even had his wings and 7 months before he was combat trained.  Palace Alert did continue for a short time in Europe however Bush was 700 hours short of the required 1000 hrs to participate...so he missed out going to Europe...darn.

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
From 1968-69, 12,000 Army Guardsmen and 10,511 Air Guardsmen were called to serve their country. Over 9,500 Guardsmen were sent to Vietnam, earning over 4,000 decorations during the conflict.

Interesting stats...but not the whole story...what % of the total Guardsmen force were sent to Vietnam?  I can tell you that of the 9.2 million servicemen serving between 1964-1975 that 3.1 million served in Southeast Asia at some point.

[Toad]

Originally posted by crowMAW
...so he missed out going to Europe...darn.
 

I pretty much agree with what you've said here but the gratuitous stuff like this is what raises my eyebrow.

Is the implication that all the Palace Alert guys in Europe really didn't have a mission, that it was just a big vacation?

Or is the implication that only scoundrels would volunteer for the "good duty" slots that occasionally become available in the armed forces?

Is the implication that  if a "good deal" comes down to scheduling, you shouldn't volunteer for it because it somehow shows you're a self-centered little coward or something?

I volunteered for the "good deals" that came down to my squadron. I got one, once. I didn't volunteer for the clearly "sh t details" that came down to my squadron. No one did. I got a few of those anyway and so did everyone else.

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by Toad
I pretty much agree with what you've said here but the gratuitous stuff like this is what raises my eyebrow.

Toad...just matching outragous comments with outragous comments...

I've had to listen to the Faux...er Fox, O'Riley, Limbaugh, etc crapola spewed by boardmembers for years...now I get to dish the spin back out.

BTW Toad...continued research shows that Bush landed one of 4 pilot slots available to the Texas ANG that year...he filled the last spot having finished in the 25 percentile (lowest qualified) in the pilot aptitude area.  

One source, says that there were nearly 500 applicants for those 4 pilot slots...not sure, but that number sounds a little high.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by crowMAW
Interesting stats...but not the whole story...what % of the total Guardsmen force were sent to Vietnam?  I can tell you that of the 9.2 million servicemen serving between 1964-1975 that 3.1 million served in Southeast Asia at some point.

I'm just disgusted by those who seem to think that serving in the guard is somehow dodging.  It isn't. Elements of the Texas Air Guard served in Vietnam.

Web search indicates that while only 9% of American personnel in VN were Marine Corp, over 25% of the US deaths were absorbed by the Corp.

However 21% of Americans were Navy and only 4.4% of the deaths are to sailors.

If one were to base arguments solely on statistics, you could come to the horrendously incorrect conclusion that those who joined the Navy did so for the sole purpose of dodging the land casualties, as a sailors chance of death or injury was far less than the Army or Marine Corp.

Serving in any capacity in the armed forces in honorable.

[Toad]

Originally posted by crowMAW
he filled the last spot having finished in the 25 percentile (lowest qualified) in the pilot aptitude area.  

 

Iv'e seen this posted as gospel but I haven't ever seen it documented. In fact, when I first went looking for it about all I found was the old "AFOQT/pilot aptitude test scores are not part of the permanent record" and so are not available.

What have you found on that in the way of documentation?

If he did get one of four slots, I'm certainly not surprised. His dad was a serving US Reprentative of Texas for pity's sake. All he had to do was pick up the phone and I'm sure he probably did.

At one time, the serving Governor of Missouri was a family friend; I could have easily gotten into the St. Louis guard flying fighters. I should have taken the offer, but I had just gotten out, had my major airline job and didn't see any need to wear blue again. Now, in my later years, I think it probably would have been a lot of fun. They had F-4's then and transitioned to F-15's IIRC. And all it would have taken is a phone call.

So? What's the point? Well connected people get to do things that "normal" folks never get a shot at? DUH!

Did Bush's dad get him into the Texas Guard using political clout? Did he get the slot ahead of other, perhaps more worthy but less "connected" people? I'd guess so; that's where I'd place my money if I was betting.

So? Like I said, now research what the other 434 US Representatives and 100 Senators did for THEIR kids in that time period, not just in the military but in the private sector as well.

Do you think there are any sons of Congressmen out there that are piss-poor students that graduated at the very bottom of their class that got real, real good jobs on Wall Street or in major law firms or corporationsa? What do you think?

Is that fair?


Check your life contract and see if the word "fair" is in there anywhere.  

[Toad]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
those who joined the Navy did so for the sole purpose of dodging the land casualties,

Everybody knows THAT'S true, Holden.






Good point; perhaps it will be a much more clear example of what some of us have been trying to say here.

[Kieran]

I think you made a good point earlier; We all apply for the prime spots in any organization- heck, it's expected of us to do so. Yet... we are going to slam someone else for doing so. Of course the real question is whether political influence gave Bush an advantage, which it certainly did. That doesn't make his actions in that regard immoral.

[Airhead]

I look at it as taking advantage of a situation he'd be a fool not to take advantage of- just like Clinton did when he applied for a school deferment or all of us do when we find a legal loophole that'll reduce our taxes. I see nothing wrong with it, just like I see nothing wrong with Kerry criticizing the VietNam war the way he did.

It's too bad they prefer bringing this crapola up instead of discussing the issues, but that's politics.

[guttboy]

Toad,

I must have just missed him at Hurby.  I wish I could have told you that I knew him...its a small dang world out there!

TG12:)

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by Toad

Iv'e seen this posted as gospel but I haven't ever seen it documented. In fact, when I first went looking for it about all I found was the old "AFOQT/pilot aptitude test scores are not part of the permanent record" and so are not available.

What have you found on that in the way of documentation?

Retired Col. Rufus G. Martin, then personnel officer in charge of the 147th Fighter Group, said the unit was short of its authorized strength, but still had a long waiting list, because of the difficulty getting slots in basic training for recruits at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. Martin said four openings for pilots were available in the 147th in 1968, and that Bush got the last one.

Its from an old article:  Washington Post

Originally posted by Toad

So? What's the point? Well connected people get to do things that "normal" folks never get a shot at? DUH!

I think that most folks don't believe this is appropriate behavior.  I think that there have been more than a few examples of well connected folks that took the more ethical path through life even though they may have had the opportunity to do otherwise.  I think it says something about a person's character.  Don't you?

Not a dig...just a quote:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." My American Journey by Colin Powell

[weaselsan]

It's quite CLEAR to me that the context is Vietnam era NG duty and how it was used by the influential as a safe haven for thier progeny. [/B][/QUOTE]


Nicely put, these are the kind of statements we want the families
of NG members to hear from the Democrats...more please.