Author Topic: It's Just Not Fair!!!  (Read 6864 times)

Nakhui

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It's Just Not Fair!!!
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2004, 03:19:20 PM »
Whine whine whine... what a bunch of whiners!

Liberals! Liberals! Liberals!

Commie! Commie! Commie!!

Jezus!

Hey! IT'S POLITICS!

Don't be naive!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2004, 03:34:39 PM »
F-102's were flown in Viet Nam by several air guard units as part of Palace Alert program through Jun of 1970. From 1968 through 1970, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, Bush's unit, participated in "Palace Alert" and served in Southeast Asia during the height of the Vietnam War.

So remember this: Bush volunteered to serve in a Guard unit at the very time that unit had fighters deployed to SE Asia.

Bush qualified in the F-102 on June 27, 1970. Palace Alert was winding down at that time and though he lacked the number of hours they wanted in a pilot (1,000+) he volunteered anyway. They turned him down for lack of hours and because the 147th's misson was changing from intercept to F-102 RTU for the entire Guard.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2004, 05:43:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Hey Bush DID serve in a war!





Didn't know his first name was Ernst though.


You are actually kinda funny, but perhaps not the way you intended...

Nice avatar.

Nice handle.

Your German is pretty good- might even say "well practiced".

Your country has a history of collaboration with the Nazis.

I think it's obvious who the nazi is. ;)

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2004, 07:29:49 PM »
Oh, everyone's a "Mr.Black" now? No, I think your tendencies got the better of you, Herr Scholz.

Offline guttboy

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« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2004, 07:36:42 PM »
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Sorry, didn't know you had to be in the military to post here.


Sixpence....

I was just curious....was not meant as a slam whatsoever I hope you werent directing that at me?

I grew up north of Boston in Chelmsford btw.


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No, just the ones who were getting paid to be there and were not.


Bush was not being paid to be in Vietnam...he was being paid to be in the military.  No everyone in the military ends up in combat or in a combat zone

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But i'll never question his thoughts or actions involving vietnam. He served there, he lived all those horror stories you've heard. Maybe if you saw what he did, you may have protested too. I have a soft spot for vietnam vets, and no matter what they think about the war, I always respect their thoughts on it. I'll never question Kerry's service, or anyone who served over there. I never want to see what they saw. I hope no one ever sees that again.


I agree with what you are saying there.....I was just a PUP when Vietnam was going on.....for those that have seen the horror of war...their views on life take on a whole new meaning.

I am in the USAF and although I dont agree with Kerry on MANY issues...he did serve and is entitled to his opinions on the war.  If those opinions are expressed in such a manner that harms our servicemen then I think that is wrong.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2004, 07:42:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by guttboy
Yeager.....why?  He was in a unit that was in charge of defending the nation from the Soviet Union's nuclear bomber threat.  Was that not important at the time?


What exaclty was the Soviet nuclear bomber threat at that time?

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2004, 07:44:44 PM »
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Originally posted by Pongo
What exaclty was the Soviet nuclear bomber threat at that time?


I believe SAC maintained a defense against possible bombers carrying nukes. Whether real or imagined.

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2004, 07:44:58 PM »
Pongo, you should know better than that.  The USSR maintained  a strategic bomber threat all the way through the cold war and they still train for that mission to this day.  Haven't you seen all the photos taken from NORAD interceptors of Bear bombers in the identification zones right offshore of the US and Canada?  They were constantly probing our defenses and vice versa.  Both sides had bombers and interceptors on a hair trigger for something like 40 years.  

Our interceptors tended to take photos, theirs tended to open fire.  The SAC Museum has a very nice monument to the dozens of US aircrew shot down by USSR aircraft during "peacetime", with details on each engagement.

I'm going to have to give a Cold War seminar at the next Mini-Con.  We'll get Toad and Gums and some guys from Lawrence Livermore and Sandia to teach you guys about Nukular Warfare, toe to toe with the Rooskies.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2004, 07:50:00 PM by FUNKED1 »

Offline -MZ-

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« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2004, 08:04:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
However, the underlying idea that "Guard guys did not really serve" is just the most incredible horse exhaust I've heard around here in a while.


I don't care much about this flap but I thought this article was interesting - from the Washington Post


From Guardsman . . .

By Richard Cohen
Tuesday, February 10, 2004


During the Vietnam War, I was what filmmaker Michael Moore would call a "deserter." Along with President Bush and countless other young men, I joined the National Guard, did my six months of active duty (basic training, etc.) and then returned to my home unit, where I eventually dropped from sight. In the end, just like President Bush, I got an honorable discharge. But unlike President Bush, I have just told the truth about my service. He hasn't.
 
At least I don't think so. Nothing about Bush during that period -- not his drinking, not his partying -- suggests that he was a consistently conscientious member of the Texas or Alabama Air National Guard. As it happens, there are no records to show that Bush reported for duty during the summer and fall of 1972. Nonetheless, Bush insists he was where he was supposed to be -- "Otherwise I wouldn't have been honorably discharged," Bush told Tim Russert. Please, sir, don't make me laugh.

It is sort of amazing that every four or eight years, Vietnam -- that long-ago war -- rears up from seemingly nowhere and comes to figure in the national political debate. In 1988 Dan Quayle had to answer for his National Guard service. In 1992 Bill Clinton had to grapple with the question of how he avoided the Vietnam-era draft. Now George Bush, who faced this question the last time out, has to face it again. The reason is that this time he is likely to compete against a genuine war hero. John Kerry did not duck the war.

But George Bush did. He did so by joining the National Guard. Bush now wants to drape the Vietnam-era Guard with the bloodied flag of today's Iraq-serving Guard -- "I wouldn't denigrate service to the Guard," Bush warned during his interview with Russert -- but the fact remained that back then the Guard was where you went if you did not want to fight. That was the case with me. I opposed the war in Vietnam and had no desire to fight it. Bush, on the other hand, says he supported the war -- as long, it seems, as someone else fought it.

It hardly matters what Bush did or did not do back in 1972. He is not the man now he was then -- that by his own admission. In the same way, it did not matter that Clinton ducked the draft, because, really, just about everyone I knew at the time was doing something similar. All that really matters is how one accounts for what one did. Do you tell the truth (which Clinton did not)? Or do you do what I think Bush has been doing, which is making his National Guard service into something it was not? In his case, it was a rich kid's way around the draft.

In my case, it was something similar -- although (darn!) I was not rich. I was, though, lucky enough to get into a National Guard unit in the nick of time, about a day before I was drafted. I did my basic and advanced training (combat engineer) and returned to my unit. I was supposed to attend weekly drills and summer camp, but I found them inconvenient. I "moved" to California and then "moved" back to New York, establishing a confusing paper trail that led, really, nowhere. For two years or so, I played a perfectly legal form of hooky. To show you what a mess the Guard was at the time, I even got paid for all the meetings I missed.

In the end, I wound up in the Army Reserve. I was assigned to units for which I had no training -- tank repairman, for instance. In some units, we sat around with nothing to do and in one we took turns delivering antiwar lectures. The National Guard and the Reserves were something of a joke. Everyone knew it. Books have been written about it. Maybe things changed dramatically by 1972, two years after I got my discharge, but I kind of doubt it.

I have no shame about my service, but I know it for what it was -- hardly the Charge of the Light Brigade. When Bush attempts to drape the flag of today's Guard over the one he was in so long ago, when he warns his critics to remember that "there are a lot of really fine people who have served in the National Guard and who are serving in the National Guard today in Iraq," then he is doing now what he was doing then: hiding behind the ones who were really doing the fighting. It's about time he grew up.

cohenr@washpost.com

Offline guttboy

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« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2004, 08:15:34 PM »
Thanks Funked1....couldn't respond to PONGO because I was away from the computer for a bit.

Pongo...see funked's post on this.

As far as the letter from Mr Cohen......and this quote from him....

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In the end, I wound up in the Army Reserve. I was assigned to units for which I had no training -- tank repairman, for instance. In some units, we sat around with nothing to do and in one we took turns delivering antiwar lectures. The National Guard and the Reserves were something of a joke. Everyone knew it. Books have been written about it. Maybe things changed dramatically by 1972, two years after I got my discharge, but I kind of doubt it.


You know what I wrote a book once....it was about space aliens that came down to earth....

I dont believe everything I read....just because a book was written does not make things gospel.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2004, 08:41:05 PM »
Well, MZ.. he must be right. Because one guy had a total "goof off" experience, the entire National Guard/Reserve system was a joke, right?

Quote


 
Dispelling a Myth:
Forgotten Acclaim
Part Two
October 2002
Air Guardsmen won unprecedented praise for their service in Vietnam. It’s a fact that belies popular perception of the Guard and the conflict.

By Retired Chief Warrant Officer 2 John W. Listman, Jr.

As outlined in last month’s National Guard magazine, the limited mobilization of Guard units for the Vietnam War came in response to the North Korean seizure of the USS Pueblo Jan. 23, 1968, quickly followed by the communist’s Tet Offensive in Vietnam.

In fact, President Lyndon Johnson authorized the call up of selected Air Guard units even before the first wave of the Tet attacks Jan. 29, 1968. This first mobilization brought eight tactical fighter squadrons, or TFS, and three tactical reconnaissance squadrons, TRS, to active duty Jan. 27, 1968.

Each of these squadrons was the main element of a larger tactical fighter/reconnaissance group, which included support units consisting of base operations, maintenance, weather, medical and other units. The total number of Air Guardsmen mobilized in this first increment included 1,076 officers (including 447 pilots and 11 female nurses) and 8,102 enlisted personnel....

But even before the 1968 mobilization, a few select Air Guard units and personnel were helping with the war effort in Southeast Asia. As early as 1966, Guard air transportation squadrons, or ATS, including Georgia’s 128th and Mississippi’s 183rd ATS, flying the C-124 Globemaster II, began airlifting supplies to Vietnam. More than 1,000 such missions were flown over the course of the war....

The first Air Guard unit to deploy to South Vietnam was Colorado’s 120th TFS, which arrived at Phan Rang Air Base, about 25 miles south of Cam Ranh Bay May 3, 1968. The unit, assigned to the 35th Tactical Fighter Wing, flew its first combat mission just two days later. By the end of its 11-month tour, the 120th had set an Air Guard wartime record of 5,905 sorties....

The next Air Guard squadron to arrive in country was Iowa’s 174th TFS. It was joined by the Iowa Air National Guard’s 185th Consolidated Aircraft Maintenance Squadron. Both units, totaling 376 men, were operational May 17, 1968. They were assigned to Phu Cat Air Base, 225 miles northeast of Saigon. The unit won high praise from their regular Air Force counterparts for the hard work the Guardsmen put in on keeping their aircraft in excellent condition. Phu Cat was an isolated post, with a large number of refugees seeking shelter from enemy attack....

The 188th TFS from Albuquerque, N.M., arrived at Tuy Hoa Air Base, 80 miles north of Cam Ranh Bay June 7, 1968. Affectionately known as the “Enchilada Air Force” (see side bar), it was assigned to the 31st Tactical Fighter Wing.

The 188th saw a great deal of hostile action--above and on the ground....

New York’s 136th TFS, the last Air Guard fighter squadron in Vietnam, arrived at Tuy Hoa Air Base and began flying its first combat missions by June 15, 1968. Also assigned to the 31st Tactical Fighter Wing, the 244 officers and men spent the next 11 months flying almost daily missions primarily in support of U.S. and South Vietnamese forces....

In addition, there was one more unit, sometimes referred to as “the fifth Air Guard squadron” also in action. It was the 355th TFS based at Phu Cat Air Base. The unit, which was organized in South Carolina as a regular Air Force squadron, had more than 80 percent of its personnel drawn from two mobilized Guard units: the 119th and 121st TFS. The 355th flew F-100s and performed the same types of missions as those performed by the other Air National Guard fighter squadrons.....



Yeah, National Guardsmen didn't serve. They were all a bunch of layabout goof-offs.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline guttboy

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« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2004, 08:43:21 PM »
Thanks for that article TOAD.....I choose to believe that article....see you can believe what you want....


Now about my space aliens....LOL

Seriously good article TOAD.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2004, 08:46:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
yea MT we start going after the librals just like they go after bush every day and we are now nazis and bush is hitler.....typical.




Just cause someone has the insight to quote me in his sig, doesn't make him me.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2004, 08:46:48 PM »




Never happened, right? Photoshopped?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2004, 08:51:38 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2004, 08:52:20 PM »
Did you happen to know Doc Murdoch?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!