Take a wild guess....

[Pongo]

Originally posted by guttboy
Gsholz......

Would you mind answering a question...I am not trying to be "mean or ill-willed"  I would just like your opinion....

What would you have proposed that the "current administration" in the United States had done?

Thanks....just looking for your opinion seeing that you dont live in the US.

Regards...

reasonable question. Done about what though?

[guttboy]

I can't think of any other US administration or other nation that has managed to turn away so many allies, infuriate so many potential enemies, and increase the support of anti-US terrorism world wide in such a short time as your current administration.

Gsholz....what would you have done after September 11th 2001?

[guttboy]

Gsholz,

How did the administration blow it with Iraq?  Just curious...

[BigMax]

Originally posted by GScholz
By going against the will of the UN and the international community perhaps? Not gonna win many friends by saying "**** you all, we're going anyway! Might is right!" No, not many friends at all.

As I recall...
The world was in agreement that something needed to be done, and that ALL intel at that time indicated that Iraq DID in fact have weapons of mass destruction.  Then 911 happened...  We asked the U.N. to make a stand with us... They balked, hid, and cowerred... However, the Untied States had suffered the direct brunt of the International Terrorism you so laughingly dismiss.  It was our sons, daughter, mother, fathers, sisters, and brother who died on 911...  We were attacked!, Not you nor your country.  We didn't need to have a coalition nor did we need permission - WE WERE ATTACKED AND WE WERE AT WAR.

As far as your rambling cliches go.... Have you ever paused to consider what we in the United States truly stand for?  Have we ever invaded and conquered a single country that we kept?  In WW2, the United States occupied almost ALL of Europe - did we keep it? Will we keep stay in Iraq?  Do the Iraqi people want us to leave or are they still scared of their own government?  WAR is never our first choice, but if we choose it, we play to win.  Vietnam taught us that lesson.  

Say what you will.... We are a peace loving people but we WILL ALWAYS stand up for what is right.  If you choose not to, then that's your buisness - stay out of ours.

[guttboy]

Gsholz,

You are  entitled to your opinions.

Mine are these....Our country was attacked.  We responded.  We continued to respond by going against the Iraqi regime that was in power.  The US Administration....with the approval of our Congress...went in to Iraq.

I am not 100% sure on all the reasons for going against Iraq...I do know this.  The Iraqi regime has gone against every UN resolution since the end of the first Gulf War.  Doesnt that make you a little upset that they would just thumb their noses at the United Nations?

[guttboy]

You recall incorrectly. That is no surprise however. I bet you even believe there were Iraqi hijackers on those planes, and that Iraq funded the operation.

Gsholz....I hope that above quote was not intended for me because that is WAY off base.

What did Iraq do to you? Why did you kill thousands of them?

Well as a personal matter Iraq did do something to me or rather 14 of my squad mates that died in the first Gulf War when their aircraft was shot down.

The UN didn't want this invasion, you had no right to invade them. The war was illegal and unjust.

Whether the UN wanted this invasion or not in my opinion is not the issue.

I do not know where the subject of legality came into question...as for unjust I do not agree.

There are times when individuals and nations go to war.  There are many reasons for this.

I pose this question to you.....in the late 30's and early 40's there was a man called Adolf Hitler.  There were many things that he did that were not quite "nice".  Thousands of Jews were massacred because of this man's "ideals".  Was it wrong for the United States to go to war against this man and his nation?  I dont think so.

Fast forward to 1990 and 2003.  There was a man and a regime that killed thousands of people in his own country.  Is that right?  In my opinion NO.  Are the Iraqi people in a better situation because he is gone?  I think so.  Should anyone have let him go on and do that?  I dont think so.

As far as just or unjust that is a question that can only be answered by you from your frame of reference.

Do I think that Iraq is in a better situation now than with the Hussein regime in power......Yes.

[Dowding]

America had unprecendented support after Sept. 11th. Unprecedented. The invasion of Afghanistan was supported right across the board as a legitimate response to an aggressive act against the US.

With Iraq, the US pissed it away. This quote from Robin Cook's resignation speech, former Foreign Secretary in Blair's government, pretty much sums it up:

"Only a year ago, we and the United States were part of a coalition against terrorism that was wider and more diverse than I would ever have imagined possible.

History will be astonished at the diplomatic miscalculations that led so quickly to the disintegration of that powerful coalition. "

[Ping]

I find it amusing that there is no outrage of what your ally in this war against Terror, Pakistan, is guilty of.

 Invading Iraq was to prevent WMD from falling into the hands of rogue states and terrorists. In the meantime Pakistan is selling off that technology to NK, Iran, Libya. Say you're sorry and all is forgiven.
 This war is a sham when you allow your friends to commit acts like these while obliterating those you don't like.
What is S A guilty of that won't be dealt with as long as you need what they have? And I'm not refering to Oil.

[SLO]

Originally posted by Nod
France.....welllll........France has........uhhhhhhhhh......er rrrr............the maginal line?

 

couple a hundred nukes dumbprettythang....

and France has been dealing with ARAB Nations way before your time.....

and you let someone with 0% experience in Foriegn Relations Dictate the line of conduct of countries who have had close relations(money owed to them..also known as interest)with these ARAB Nations....

Hence Gsholtz's Alienating your Allies comments....

[Westy]

Dowding hit the nail on the head.   100%

[guttboy]

Wow....woke up to a great debate!

Gsholz....I personally dont think that the UN is on the "right" side of history at times.  There are times that nations need to accomplish things that are in their best interest.  If you take a traditional "realist view" on the subject you would have one view.  If you take a traditional "liberalist" view you would have another ( not refering to the current Americanized form of liberalism...using the John Locke definition ).

My thoughts....being from the United States....not that this sways things in my opinion....Is that there have been COUNTLESS threats against the US from Iraq.  Some of us have had the "pleasure" of flying over Northern and Southern Iraq in the "NO FLY ZONES".  Do I want to get into how many times the Iraqi's have shot at me????  NO...would care not to relive that.  However, I must point out that all of these incidents could be construed as acts of war.  War against the UN for that matter.  Do you know that there were coalition forces enforcing those UN mandates?  

My point is this.....You, from my reading of your posts as obviously I dont know you as a person, feel that the UN has the final say in the matter....Is this safe to assume?   I on the other hand,  personally dont care what the UN has to say when it comes to the US dealing with its vital and important interests.  That is something that our President and Congress have decided we must do....for reasons of WMD, war crimes, atrocities against humanity, etc ....whatever those reasons are they were agreed upon by the "administration" in the US....and whatever the UN says would not sway our decisions to do what we did.

Is that "right", is that "wrong", is it "legal", is it "illegal"....Like I have stated before it depends on your viewpoint.  From mine I think the US and coalition forces did the right thing.

As far as Iraq being a better place now or before....that is a matter of opinion.  You have yours and I have mine.  I think it better without that tyrant in there.  Just my opinion.

Here is another question for you and it is purely hypothetical.....

Suppose the country of Sweden decided to do something to your nation?  They perhaps were making chemicals or nukes or giant killer rats with swords...LOL....but seriously...your nation felt 100% that you would be in danger.  What would you propose that Norway do?  Ask the UN for help?  Perhaps the UN does not have all the information that Norway does?  Perhaps there are some nations that like Sweden for reasons much deeper than purely political (cash?)?  Now lets say you took this to the UN for a vote...hmmmm....the UN says 'OK Norway, I hear ya but I cant do anything without CONCRETE proof'.  What do you do at that point?  Remember you feel that your nation is going to be under some sort of attack.  What would you do?  Honestly do you give a crap on what the UN says when it comes down to your sovereignty or the fact that your daughter or best friend will be hurt or even killed?

I know what I would do.

Remember it is a frame of reference here.

Would it have been nice to have 100% of the UN on the Coalition's side when Iraq was attacked?  Sure....Realistically I think that would not have happened.  Do I think that all the nations in the world should agree on things such as war...sure...realistically though that is NOT going to happen.

When everything is said and done nations will do what they feel necessary....bottom line plain and simple.  Do I agree with that...well it would depend on my frame of reference.  I do have my thoughts on Iraq....was I happy that we went in there?  Not particularly....I dont enjoy hanging my arse out to be shot down....however I do believe in my heart that the people of that country are much better off than had Saddam Hussein remained in power AND I support the decisions that my country and the coalition made.

As far as answering your question earlier about "what did Iraq do to me?"  Here are just a couple of links....

http://members.cox.net/twosteppin/heroes.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/2514/spirit03.html

http://www.specialoperations.com/Memorial/spirit.html

[SLO]

Originally posted by guttboy
Wow....woke up to a great debate!

My point is this.....You, from my reading of your posts as obviously I dont know you as a person, feel that the UN has the final say in the matter....Is this safe to assume?   I on the other hand,  personally dont care what the UN has to say when it comes to the US dealing with its vital and important interests.  That is something that our President and Congress have decided we must do....for reasons of WMD, war crimes, atrocities against humanity, etc ....whatever those reasons are they were agreed upon by the "administration" in the US....and whatever the UN says would not sway our decisions to do what we did.

 

US is 1 country....

UN represents over 100 countries....

when the 1 Country tries to Dictate to the UN your telling 100 countries to go blow themselves....bad attitude in my book.

the world is my oyster....the world is getting smaller by the day....alienating other countries because of your so called interesting is called bad Diplomacy.

I'm a citizen of this Blue Planet we call Earth....don't alienate me because of your countries interest...Foriegn Diplomacy 101

[guttboy]

SLO,

The last time I checked it just wasnt the US involved with Iraq now was it?

[guttboy]

SLO,

Dont get me wrong either.....I do feel that we should all get along and work together but that just does not happen.

the world is my oyster....the world is getting smaller by the day....alienating other countries because of your so called interesting is called bad Diplomacy.

I agree with you but if your nation's interests are at stake you will do whatever you deem necessary to keep them safe.

I'm a citizen of this Blue Planet we call Earth....don't alienate me because of your countries interest...Foriegn Diplomacy 101

Again.....listen to what you are saying....look at the argument I gave Gsholz about Sweden...(please all you Swedes out there I am only using this as a HYPOTHETICAL example)....If Canada was in the same boat would you speak the same way?

Again....I FEEL that a nation will go to whatever cost to protect their interests.....whether that is right or wrong depends on your frame of reference.

Please dont take this as "standoffish or elitism" it is not meant that way....I just know that I have the RIGHT to do the things I do and say the things because my NATION looked out for its own interest and many times the interests of other nations.

[Nod]

Originally posted by SLO
couple a hundred nukes dumbprettythang....

Hence Gsholtz's Alienating your Allies comments....

1. I was not including WMD, I was reffering if it came down to a actual war not a NUCLEAR WAR. As a country France does not have mass amounts of man power, or superior technology of tanks planes or bombs that i have seen.

2. I was talking if it came to a war, not international relations.

3. Gsholtz never said anything about my comments, but agreed that "By going against the will of the UN and the international community perhaps? Not gonna win many friends by saying "**** you all, we're going anyway! Might is right!" No, not many friends at all." thats the same thing I was saying in my first post.