Question to Skuzzy/HTC.

[mrblack]

True .
not meant to offend anyone.
I have NO love for NAZI's either.
But I do think It time to move foward and with an eye on the past
We can make sure the souls of over 6 million jews will never be forgotten.

[Replicant]

Although I don't mind seeing swastikas on German aircraft, I can understand why they're not included on an international game.

Apart from the obvious of people being offended by the Nazi symbol, there are also possible legal issues.  Imagine if a country or two tried to sue HTC to ensure that their countries couldn't access AH because of the swastika.  That nearly happened to Yahoo with servers in France having Nazi material.  Of course HTC is based in the US but I'm sure legal experts have ways and means of trying to enforce 'laws' etc., blah blah blah.  Whichever way you look at it, it is a very sensitive issue/area and I think the safest course of action is one that doesn't provoke peoples anger, beliefs and attitudes.

Check the following thread, sooner or later the legal system might actually prevent access....

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1036630517051

[Wmaker]

This thread never was about what is being discussed here.

Just Stop it now please.

Skuzzy, this thread has served its purpose in giving me the info I wanted. I would like to get it locked if possible before it turns into somethin no one wants.

[lasersailor184]

It's a very valid argument Wmaker.  



But the real reason that Germany banned the Swastika was because they want to forget that they killed 20+ million people.  They want their people to forget it.  They want other nations to forget the millions of people dead at the hands of Germans.





But, history is history, trying to forget one part of it still doesn't change the fact that they did what they did.

[Kweassa]

You're right lasersailor.

 The point is this; "should flying a recreated vehicle in a virtual reality world, which contains a certain historic symbol/icon of unfortunate past, be considered an attempt of reenactment of the past, and thus, violating the issues in regards to what the offensive historic symbol/icon stands for?"

 It's a complicated issue - everyone would agree on that fact. The above question alone, probably is worth a debate for months for historians and philosophers.

 So, to leave the head-hurtin' debate out of this, we should look it at a purely legal perspective... and perhaps discuss possible 'work-arounds'

 
 For instance, the following pic is a skin I'm currently working on:



 Now, since there are people with different opinions here, I must ask: would the symbol looking like the Roman numeral "X", be acceptable? Is it still offensive?

 As a skinner, I have the opinion that skins can also be considered as a sort of a practical artwork. So, in compromise of the issues discussed above, would a substitute be accepted?

 Because, from an aesthetical point of view, leaving out the swastika makes a large blank area on the vertical stab, which makes the plane look awkward.

[ALF]

I doubt that it would be listed as illegal (or in HTC case banned)...but it sure looks stupid.  Please take no offence...but it just goofy.  I understand HT reasoning, and I would have no choice but to make the same decisions if this were my game.  But we gotta use the accepted 'plus sign thingy' we have now....

Its ashame in many ways, but we all know the bozos on both sides of this issue would make life just ever so much fun (I gotta stop letting my kid watch Hey Arnold).

[GScholz]

How about just a diamond?





Or perhaps a more German cross, while not being Nazi.





I think this is my favourite. An ace of spades.

[straffo]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
It's a very valid argument Wmaker.  



But the real reason that Germany banned the Swastika was because they want to forget that they killed 20+ million people.  They want their people to forget it.  They want other nations to forget the millions of people dead at the hands of Germans.





But, history is history, trying to forget one part of it still doesn't change the fact that they did what they did.

Obviously again you don't have ever spoke to a german nor understand their point of view.

This sentence :
 

They want their people to forget it.  They want other nations to forget the millions of people dead at the hands of Germans.

Is incredibly harsh and stupid.

[ramzey]

Originally posted by mrblack
True but the game is based in Texas not germany.
So I would guess it would have to follow US law?

Just seems a little sillt to me I mean My family will never forget the holocoust but time to move on.

You can put a monkey in a suite but when its all said and done he's still just a monkey.

The world needs to stop sugar coating everything.

Originally posted by mrblack
True .
not meant to offend anyone.
I have NO love for NAZI's either.
But I do think It time to move foward and with an eye on the past
We can make sure the souls of over 6 million jews will never be forgotten.

as lawfull citizen of US you should know same symbols are forbinden in america too. Guess who establish this law in german y
anyway i think you should read something more then history book for first grade. Holocaust kill not only jewsh but over 20 mln peoples of all nation. This people should be never forgotten too

@Kwessa, any kinde of cross ar any similar symbol to this on website posted by lucull wil be illegal. If somone like to sue anyone.

[hitech]

Gentlemen drop the politics in this form please.

The resone we don't alow swaticas is pretty simple the hassle of alowing them is not worth  any gain from having them in the game.


HiTech

[Pfunk]

Originally posted by hitech
Gentlemen drop the politics in this form please.

The resone we don't alow swaticas is pretty simple the hassle of alowing them is not worth  any gain from having them in the game.


HiTech

Historical accuracy , I mean isnt that what this game is all about.  Stupid arse PC horsechit

[Superfly]

Yeah that's it.  Keep egging him on Pfunk.  That's a great idea!  

[DREDIOCK]

Folks,

 As per my questions . I specifically asked "no flames please"

 I asked two questions. Why it wasnt allowed and more importantly.
Who of the nationalities/relegeons that were victims of the Nazis would be bothered by it or not bothered by the use of it if it were allowed.
The question was made out of pure curiousity on my part and not to start any kind of political or legal debate or flamefest.
So lets not do either shall we.

[Kweassa]

.. and I believe most of it has been answered already.
 
 In the political/philosophical/ethical sense, after the experience of the Nazi Party's legal rise of power in 1933, people have come to realize that democracy is not laissez-faire. It doesn't just naturally rule out destructive forces of power. Assuming that people will just not vote for racists or Nazis, and they will fizzle out by themselves without any poweful intervention, is a lazy dream.

 Thus, more aggressive intervention from the state has become the agenda after the Nazi experience. The people have entrusted power to the government to protect and uphold certain principles, and the government will use that power. Letting a political party thrive which denounces the very essentials of democracy itself, is something like a political suicide of democracy.

 Thus, for that reason, anything leading to Nazism is prohibited. That's the basic philosophy behind in making certain symbols illegal, in European states. It might be a bit different in the US tho'

 .....

 In the legal/commercial sense, allowing the symbol to be used is gonna cause some serious head-aches. Thus, it's left out in games. Just like the ol' saying in our country; "don't touch shi* if you don't want to get dirty"

[Dowding]

I think this thread is proof positive of the wisdom of keeping Nazi symbolism out of the game.