Author Topic: Getting the government out of marriage  (Read 3393 times)

Offline Thrawn

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Getting the government out of marriage
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2004, 09:56:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by stiehl
It's not as if they're going to turn the kids gay or something.


You are right.

"GAYS AND LESBIANS MAKE BAD PARENTS

“THERE IS NO BASIS IN THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE FOR THIS PERCEPTION”

-- CANADIAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION

OTTAWA, AUGUST 6, 2003 – There is a popular misconception that gay and lesbian parents, because of their sexual orientation, compromise the psychological and sexual development of their children. A well-publicized statement of this point of view is found in a document recently released by the Vatican entitled “Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons”. This Vatican document states, in part: “As experience has shown, the absence of sexual complementarity in these (homosexual) unions creates obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons. They would be deprived of the experience of either fatherhood or motherhood. Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development.” (Section III.7)

Commenting on this statement, Canadian Psychological Association (CPA) President, Dr. Patrick O’Neill, said:
“Psychosocial research into lesbian and gay parenting indicates that there is no basis in the scientific literature for this perception. With the legalization of same-sex unions in Canada, the public and various interest groups 2 are revisiting their views on this issue and CPA is concerned that publicly stated beliefs, which impact upon legislation and social policy, are not always based on scientific evidence.

”According to CPA, the psychosocial research into lesbian and gay parenting indicates that there are essentially no differences in the psychosocial development, gender identity or sexual orientation between the children of gay or lesbian parents and the children of heterosexual parents.

These research findings lead the CPA to conclude:

1. Available evidence indicates that the children of gay and lesbian parents do not differ significantly from the children of heterosexual parents with regard to psychosocial and gender development and identity.

2. Statements that children of gay and lesbian parents have more and significant problems in the areas of psychosocial or gender development and identity than do the children of heterosexual
parents have no support from the scientific literature.

3. If gay and lesbian parents encounter unique stress as parents, it is more likely the result of the public’s beliefs and perceptions about their fitness to parent and obstacles created by social
systems (such as the courts) than it is the result of any deficiencies in their actual fitness to parent.

The American Psychological Association provides an annotated bibliography of research into lesbian and gay parenting at http://www.apa.org.

The recent Vatican document also argues against legalization of gay and lesbian unions. Dr. O’Neill restated
the Canadian Psychological Association opposition to discrimination against lesbians, gay men, their
relationships and their families.

In 1996, the Canadian Psychological Association adopted a policy that stated:

“The Canadian Psychological Association supports the inclusion of sexual orientation as a protected ground of discrimination against lesbians, gay men, their relationships and their families in all human rights legislation, public policy, regulation, procedure and practice. The Canadian Psychological Association strongly opposes prejudice, bias and discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in all areas including spousal and family relationships, benefits and privileges, employment, goods, services, facilities, housing and accommodation.”


The Canadian Psychological Association is the national organization that represents the science, education and training, and practice of psychology in Canada. CPA has a membership of 5200 psychologists and students in psychology from all Canadian Provinces and Territories. Its objectives are to lead, advance and promote psychology as a science and as a profession for the benefit of humanity; to provide leadership in psychology in Canada; to promote a sense of identity among psychologists; to promote the advancement, dissemination, and practical application of psychological knowledge; to develop standards and ethical principles for education, training, science and practice
in psychology."

http://www.cpa.ca/documents/gayparenting%2Dcpa.pdf

Offline Lazerus

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Getting the government out of marriage
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2004, 10:10:37 PM »
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Originally posted by fd ski
What funk said. Abolish all tax breaks and legislation dealing with the marriage.


How about just giving everyone the tax 'break' instead of abolishing it. Then it would become universal tax code, not a 'break' for the married few.

As for the secondary issue, I don't care what ya do. As long as it doesn't take away from my ability to do whatever I want to do.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2004, 10:54:10 AM »
Lazerus: How about just giving everyone the tax 'break' instead of abolishing it. Then it would become universal tax code, not a 'break' for the married few.

 It's not just about open tax.
 There are many regulations that mandate private businesses to subcidise married people at the expense of non-married ones. That is why gays want marriage status - so that they could get mandated benefits from private and municipal employers.

 Do you know that a person can receive unemployment benefits (at least in NY state) not when he/she is fired but when he/she quits - if the spouse changes job location?
 One would think it is a voluntary decision and a a spouse changing job should consider the effect on the job of the other spouse - and be responcible for it. But the tax payer is made responcible. Not many more claims could be made if not just a legal spouse but a wider wariety of partners could make such claim, etc.

 miko

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2004, 11:33:50 AM »
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”According to CPA, the psychosocial research into lesbian and gay parenting indicates that there are essentially no differences in the psychosocial development, gender identity or sexual orientation between the children of gay or lesbian parents and the children of heterosexual parents.


Having a gay parent is not having gay parents, as in, being raised by a gay couple. The presumption I have here is there would be a heterosexual parent remaining. If behavior is largely determined by environment, which is the argument anti-death penalty folks like to argue, how can you argue environment would have nothing to do with sexuality? Before you drop the "genetic cause" line, remember, that is theory, not fact.

So I see it like this... either one side is right, and environment does matter in raising a child, or it doesn't. I can accept either one, but I cannot accept an argument that swings entirely one way when it suits the needs of the argument, and the other way when it doesn't.

To me it is much simpler; it is ludicrous to suggest mainstreaming a behavior won't increase its occurance.

Offline maslo

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« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2004, 01:00:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Tarmac


If two homosexuals think they can do a good job parenting, it's not the state's business to tell them that they can't.


There could be few problems.
What children see at home, they do consider it to be normal for quite long time.
Homosexual parents with Heterosexual childrent would be a bit messy for that children

Im not speaking about education or friendship here.
But i can imagine problems of heterosexual children in homesexual "family"

since they arent able to reproduce them self, some interaction with authority here is needed

i hope that marriedge will be permited world wide and i can finaly marry some pair of lesbians :D

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2004, 01:10:02 PM »
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Originally posted by maslo
There could be few problems.
What children see at home, they do consider it to be normal for quite long time.
Homosexual parents with Heterosexual childrent would be a bit messy for that children

Im not speaking about education or friendship here.
But i can imagine problems of heterosexual children in homesexual "family"


Are you alluding that homosexual parents will be more likely to molest their children?  I hope you have some studies to back that up, along with the ones that say heterosexual parents are better because they never molest their children.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2004, 01:25:27 PM »
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Originally posted by Tarmac
Are you alluding that homosexual parents will be more likely to molest their children?  I hope you have some studies to back that up, along with the ones that say heterosexual parents are better because they never molest their children.


I think he is not saying that.

Role models are important.  

The behavior of parents is the pattern that children emulate.  

If you want your child to have a vocabulary of only four letter words, use that language around your kids. Spousal abuse begets spousal abusers.  Dishonesty begets dishonesty.  Honor begets honor.

While the tendency to homosexuality may have a genetic root, there is a lot which is behaviorally learned as well.  Nature vs nurture has borderline which is very gray.
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Offline mrblack

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« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2004, 01:28:19 PM »
Besides wich one does the kids call mommy and wich one father?
Umm now thats a whole can of worms right there huh.

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2004, 01:36:34 PM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I think he is not saying that.

Role models are important.  

The behavior of parents is the pattern that children emulate.  

If you want your child to have a vocabulary of only four letter words, use that language around your kids. Spousal abuse begets spousal abusers.  Dishonesty begets dishonesty.  Honor begets honor.

While the tendency to homosexuality may have a genetic root, there is a lot which is behaviorally learned as well.  Nature vs nurture has borderline which is very gray.


Ok fair enough.  So if the kid  (either by genetics/nature/emulation of parents) has homosexual feelings what's wrong with the parents supporting, or even encouraging, the kid to address them instead of repressing them?

Even if the parents wanted to raise their children to be homosexuals, it shouldn't be the state's business to say that they shouldn't.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2004, 01:52:58 PM »
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Originally posted by Tarmac
Ok fair enough.  So if the kid  (either by genetics/nature/emulation of parents) has homosexual feelings what's wrong with the parents supporting, or even encouraging, the kid to address them instead of repressing them?

Even if the parents wanted to raise their children to be homosexuals, it shouldn't be the state's business to say that they shouldn't.


Oh, absolutely.

Can you imagine the cries from people if it were even suggested straight parents should try to raise gay kids straight? But it's okay to raise straight kids gay, because it is inclusive?

Up is down, black is white.

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2004, 01:59:40 PM »
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Originally posted by Kieran
Oh, absolutely.

Can you imagine the cries from people if it were even suggested straight parents should try to raise gay kids straight? But it's okay to raise straight kids gay, because it is inclusive?

Up is down, black is white.


No, you're missing my point entirely.  I'm saying that the state shouldn't mandate any style of raising your children, or encourage one through marriage law, tax law, and social programs.  

If you want to raise your straight kid as gay, go ahead.  If you want to raise your gay kid as straight, go ahead.  I may not approve of one or the other, but I don't want the government stepping in and taking action in either case.

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2004, 02:01:14 PM »
Children emulate the behaviour pattern of their peers/friends, not their parents. Its their parents that have to correct their patterns.
-SW

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2004, 02:05:12 PM »
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Children emulate the behaviour pattern of their peers/friends, not their parents. Its their parents that have to correct their patterns.
-SW


In some ways, sure.  But if I had mirrored the behavior patterns of my friends/peers, I wouldn't have my current GPA, and might not even be at a university.  

If I had emulated my peers instead of my parents, I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am today.  

Parents have the most influence on their children's lives, hands down.  Peers have a large influence, sure, but who picks the child's peers?  The parents, through their selection of an area to live in, their choice of schools, and their choice of activities to get their kid enrolled in.

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2004, 02:14:24 PM »
Is it because you didn't act like your friends, or because your parents placed consequences so you wouldn't mirror your friends' bad behaviour?
-SW

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2004, 02:46:05 PM »
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Children emulate the behaviour pattern of their peers/friends, not their parents. Its their parents that have to correct their patterns.
-SW


I guaran-frickin'-tee you that isn't wholly true. Friends have the greatest influence in a certain range of years, but in the early life, and the most formative years in a child's life, it's the parents, hands down.