800 yard Spit V shots? You cannot be serious!

[beet1e]

Sick to death of being busted up by Spit V 800 yard shots. Everything I have read about real life WW2 gunnery suggests that these shots are BS. But in AH it seems like a matter of routine for a novice players to get their kills this way. (Not saying the guy in the attached film is a novice) The usual formula is, when being chased, to pull a hard turn to the side (which in RL would be about 6G) and then as the enemy pulls up after the missed shot, the Spit V pulls another 6G turn to realign with the enemy, and blasts him from about 600 yards or more. I myself once got a kill at 1000+ yards; the joke is it was an accidental trigger squeeze.

The Spit legend. Douglas Bader, once described how he squeezed the trigger in response to a Me109 about 800 yards away, but released the trigger immediately when he realised how foolish this was. By what he later described as something of a remote fluke, he got the Me109 engine smoking - much to his own surprise, and to the even greater surprise of his wingmen!

In AH it's routine. In a recent clash in the CT of 109G6 v Spit V, the Spit Vs were really cleaning up by playing this gamey card to the full. I can accept that an occasional (but much weakened owing to the distance) ping might occur at such ranges, but it should not be possible to shoot a guy's wing off from that range.

OK, I know it's a flat rate game, and the noobs have got to be made to feel like they can succeed from Day1; perish the thought that they actually have to spend a week or two learning gunnery skills. So give 'em an easy plane that turns really well... but adding to that the ability to get these 600-800 yard shots is taking it too far.

WB saw the error of this - and revised the gunnery beginning with 2.6 so that you had to get much closer - 200 yards, max 300 yards. That's pretty much how it is for the 109s in AH. So why the 800 yard shots for the Spit V?

I've attached a film of this BS being taken to the nth degree. OK, n-1. The film is here. View it in external view mode, with icons turned on.

(PS the reason the Spit didn't suffer greater damage from me was that two of my guns were u/s after I had been de-acking the field. But that's beside the point.)

[LLv34_Camouflage]

The gunnery model in AH2 seems to be better.

Camo

[Seeker]

So; you pull of a tactital mistake while attacking a lower and slower Spit which leaves you hanging right above him in planform; and who promptly shot you in the bellybutton with the best guns of WWII.

You then post how even an expert like Bader was tempted to make similar shots; which were then proved to be effective; and you come here screaming BS....


Here's a clue: the first time the Spit pulled a well timed lead turn on you and peppered your tail with .303's should have told you you were too slow for your flying pattern ; whereupon you should have made the decision to get aggresive on the deck; which the Hog is perfectly capable of; or extending to rebuild your advantage.

The rest is WAAAAAAA he shot MEEEEEE!!!!!!

Spitwhiner.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by LLv34_Camouflage
The gunnery model in AH2 seems to be better.

Camo

I smoked a 109 at somewhere between 600 and 800 last night whilst in a Spit V. (in AH2)

Seekers right tho...............we know it ............... its clear that we can shoot at longer distances for nearly all guns..................plus lag error could always be upto 100 and a film will only show what your FE saw..........

[beet1e]

seeker, as a matter of fact I shot him and got kill credit. I splashed down with no ailerons. I had to truncate the film because of my effing and blinding afterwards, so you don't get to see that.

In this game, a Spit V can make a 180° turn in little more than 6 seconds. So from whatever angle I had approached that Spit on the first pass, he could make a hard turn to put me in his 12. He probably would have died on the first pass had all my guns been working.

Bader flew the Spit 1a with float carb; I don't know if he flew the Spit V in combat.

[Seeker]

Originally posted by beet1e

Bader flew the Spit 1a with float carb; I don't know if he flew the Spit V in combat.

So he got a 109 smoking at 800 with 303's.

And you protest shock when a gamer in no fear of his life and without any physiological distractions nor carburetion worries makes the same shot with Hispano's.

Beetle; thou doth protest too much.



In this game, a Spit V can make a 180° turn in little more than 6 seconds.

So we both agree the Spit is a predictably  nippy turner; flying in predicatable  conditions. You know this; yet you fail to incluse this in your geometry calculations in the attack.

In otherwords; you're not flying with interlect; but with feeling.

Admirable; but short sighted; as your film shows.

[beet1e]

Nope. I've had my share of 600yd BS kills. Last time I did that, I apologised to my quarry for gaming the game, as gaming the game it surely is.

My career k/d against the Spit V is 3.36/1, so I'm not too worried about them. But those 800yd shots irk me. Especially when you position yourself over a con, he pulls his nose up and hangs there spraying away, and then your wing falls off.

And I said Bader got a lucky shot! A one-pinger that drew engine smoke. I don't recall anyone routinely shooting wings off from 800 yards.

I'll requote a passage from a friend of mine - WW2 military historian.

Yes, the gunnery is way easier both in WB and AH then in real life.

WW2OL is actually a bit closer to reality.

Sims in general do not model most or any of the matters which affect the
  shooting. Airplanes differed a lot even in gun mounting, which already afffected hwo the bullets start their flight. Weapons never get hot, which worsens the accuracy - thats why in RL pilots shoot short bursts, to allow the guns cool off. Then all the kazillion details about bullets in flight. In real life practical shooting distances were generally 200 meters. There was a reason why pilots were taught to shoot close - that way you could actually hit.

You got to remember as well, that a fleeing target is fast. It runs away from the bullet, which means the longer the range, the longer way bullet must fly. 800 yards shot is not 800 yards for the bullet, it is 1000-1200 years. At those ranges bullet has lost much of its velocity.
When it hits it must pierce the airplane fuselage. Wartime tests showed bullet loses about 70% of its piercing power just on penetrating the plane skin - as it is not 90 degree penetration. After that it has much less chances on piercing critical components or armor.

So yes - 800 meter shots are total bull****.

Have you ever thought about the bullet penetration in games? I am 100% certain that when you shoot at 800 yards, the bullet penetration and kinetic energy is modeled fully, as 100 yards or so shot! The energy of the bullet should be less in longer ranges, but by my arse, they're just as efficient when they strike at 800 yards as in 100 yards and that just isn't correct.

But no can do. It's a game. It makes you mad but gotta live with it, if you want to enjoy flying.

My strategy for that attack on the Spit is only flawed in terms of AH gunnery. If it was modelled correctly, I'd have been OK. But it isn't, and I wasn't.

[Seeker]

Have you ever thought about the bullet penetration in games? I am 100% certain that when you shoot at 800 yards, the bullet penetration and kinetic energy is modeled fully, as 100 yards or so shot! The energy of the bullet should be less in longer ranges, but by my arse, they're just as efficient when they strike at 800 yards as in 100 yards and that just isn't correct.

Bader did it at 800, using the 303. So you've provided proof that the ammo modeling is spot on.

And the Spit V has Hispano's. That's a cannon; not a kinetic energy weapon.

So yes; in this scenario; using the information you provide I'd have to agree that range is to all practical purposes irrelevant.

IF he hit's you, he does damage. An Hispano round doesn't need to penetrate; that's the point of having them. And it only takes one or two rounds.

The key is not to be in a position to be hit.

[Steve]

My strategy for that attack on the Spit is only flawed in terms of AH gunnery.

But you are in an AH world..  

Beet1e, you are making a very basic mistake in this film.. a simple fix though to avoid this in the future.

After you make your last pass on the spit, you maintain your turn to the left, which is the same direction as the spit executed his brief break turn, then turned back to your six.  Immediately after you've lost gun solution if you roll right and gently turn right instead of continuing your move to the left it will take the spit much longer to turn and acquire a gun solution.(much longer being a second or two.. but enough time to get out of range)

By continuing this left turn, you are actually aiding the spit in getting a quicker gun solution.


Edit:  This assumes that you couldn't go over 3k due to ack, thus explaining why you didn't get on top of the spit after the first pass.

[Tarmac]

AH hit sprites.  You can tell when you're hitting at d800 in AH.  IRL at that distance, you'd have no idea unless, say, an engine started smoking.  This applies mostly to machine gun rounds; you might be able to see cannon round detonations at d800.

[Pooh21]

Furthest ever I hit was SpitV vs. Fin squad Mossie at 1.7k

Furthest Kill A-20 Ho vs. Skank9 at 1.5 k
got called no skilled HO-er for that one;)

Hit 1.4k with Il2- vs. running yak

many yak-t kills around 1k



its the zoom, disable zoom in AH2 and realistic gun ranges shall prevail

[beet1e]

Seeker - - but I don't think the AH gunnery is spot on. In other games, you have to get much closer. WB - 300 yds max. IL2 - even closer still. That tallies entirely from accounts I've read by WW2 aerial combatants. OK, so in AH it's 800, 1000, even 1200 yards - or 1500 yards for buff gunners...

Steve. What I'm saying is that AH is meant to be a simulation of WW2. With respect to the gunnery, it is off - way off.

I take your point about that continued left turn etc. My thought in that situation is not wanting to reverse the turn because of wanting to avoid the situation whereby I pass through his centre position....

Anyway, it doesn't matter now. He died to me, and I ditched. But I still maintain that those 800 "shear the wing off" shots are BS. Maybe an occasional "oil leak" shot might be aceptable, but not the LASER gunnery as exhibited in my film.

And steve - answer my bleeding email already!

[SlapShot]

LOL ... you make it sound like you can kill at 800 yrds 100% of the time. Such is not the case ... I would know. I don't even bother shooting past 600 yrds ... nothing but a waste of ammo.

It sounds like you took some damage to ack prior to your engagement with the Spit. That just might explain how easily your wings fell off ... prior damage and they were hanging on just barely.

Stop your whinin'

For some reason, I can't get the film to play.

[BenDover]

Yes, the gunnery is way easier both in WB and AH then in real life.

WW2OL is actually a bit closer to reality.

Did anybody else stop reading after this bit?

[Karnak]

George Buerling got a kill on a Bf109 at 800 yards while flying a Spitfire Mk V over Malta.

On July 6 he got to put into practice what he had learned when 8 Spits were sent to intercept 3 Italian Cant bombers heading for Malta. They were escorted by no less than 30 Macchi 200 fighters. Beurling led the assault diving straight through the Macchi formations and pulling up to fire on a big, Cant bomber. His first burst hit the pilot blowing off his head, the second took out an engine. Despite the damage, it made it back to base in Sicily flown by the bomber aimer/observer. Beurling turned quickly and fired directly into an Italian fighter, knocking it down in flames. He lined up another Italian fighter but it dove sharply to get away. Beurling followed all the way from 20,000 feet to 5,000. The Italian had no choice but to pull up and George caught him square in his sights. The Macchi blew up. Later the same day he led an attack on 2 Junkers Ju-88s escorted by 20 Bf-109s. A wild dogfight broke out and 2 German fighter pilots headed right for Beurling. He circled tightly and caught a 109 with a long burst from 800 yards and at a nearly impossible angle. He hit the fuel tanks and it went down in flames. In one day he increased his kill to 5 and became an ace. Back at base the other pilots snubbed him by not throwing an acknowledgement party of his ace status. He was only interested in attacking Germans. He admitted that he was a loner, but Lucas explained to him in simple, direct language that if he didn't fly as a team, he would be posted into the desert at some even more God-awful post than Malta. George flew with his wingman as well as he was able, however, over Malta most dogfights ended up being a single Spitfire against many enemy aircraft.