Author Topic: History Quiz: American West (Read 1429 times)

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2004, 03:19:40 PM »

These absolute numbers have me scratching my head. Obviously Dodge City had fewer murders than places like New York City, but that says nothing of the population differences and the actual murder rates (the number of murders per, say, 1000 or 100,000 people).

Now, finding census and murder rate figures online for this time period is pretty problematic. Here's what I found:

Dodge City Population (1878): ~2,000
New York City Population (1880): ~1,200,000

(data here and here)

We know that five people died in Dodge City in 1878, but let's just go with the average of 1.5 murdered per year. In New York City during this same period, according to this website, the murder rate ranged from between 3 per 100,000 and 7 per 100,000 -- roughly 36 to 84 murders per year. Let's just say an average of 60 murders per year during this period for the sake of simplicity and since this isn't very scientific anyway.

If we look at the number of murders per 1,000 people in each city, my calculations find:

Dodge City: 0.75 murders per 1,000 (or 75 murders per 100,000)
New York City: 0.05 murders per 1,000 (or 5 murders per 100,000)

During their high years (5 murders in Dodge City and 84 murders in New York City, if we can trust these figures), these numbers break down as:

Dodge City: 2.5 murders per 1,000 (or 250 murders per 100,000)
New York City: 0.07 murders per 1,000 (or 7 murders per 100,000)

Holy violent anarcho-capitalist societies, Batman!

-- Todd/Leviathn

miko2d · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2004, 04:53:49 PM »

ygsmilo: The ONLY people who have the RIGHT to talk about Dodge City Kansas are he ones that have been there

I am sure the people who live there are decent folk but I am not talking about modern Dodge City Kansas and its current inhabitants. I am talking about the Dodge City Kansas as it was in 1870s and the people who lived there at the time.

My point was that the image of that city and the West in general as a murderous, violent, disorderly place was a Hollywood fantasy and does not correspond to reality.
The people who lived there there - probably the ancestors of many people living there now - had no problem maintaining orderly environment without much interference from the government.
If their values and ways got inherited by their descendants, I would not be surprised that they treat each other and the strangers with respect.

Dead Man Flying: If we look at the number of murders per 1,000 people in each city, my calculations find:

Dodge City: 2.5 murders per 1,000 (or 250 murders per 100,000)
New York City: 0.07 murders per 1,000 (or 7 murders per 100,000)

You are technically correct but you miss a few points here.
First, the resident population of the Dodge City could have been 2,000 but it does not account for much greater numbers of transients and visitors from the surrounding countryside.
Also I bet most of those killed were not result of a violent crime in the usual sense but the belligerent adults picking fights in saloons. The general violent crime (robbery, rape, etc.) was extremely low compared to ours.

Dodge City was supposedely the most violent place in the West and 5 murders was its worst year - while it's average year was 1.5 - 70 per 100,000.

It would also be curious to know the combined population of "All the big cattle towns of Kansas combined saw a total of 45 murders during the period of 1870-1885." - 3 murders a year including Dodge City. They must have been more than 4,000 total population, so the rates would drop even further.

Of course we know that there was a huge spike in murder rates after the end of Civil War - for obvious reasons, as soldiers came back.

Second, I am not comparing the Dodge City of 1870s with New York City of 1870s.
I am comparing it with the image Hollywood presents and with today's America where we have millions of people in jail, enourmous numbers of police and full-time law-enforcement, much wealthier society, etc. - and considerable crime rates.
What tax rates did they pay?

Give me New York City of 1870 or Dodge City of 1870 with their tax rates and safety any day - I will be happy too!

miko

ravells · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2004, 06:49:48 PM »

Nice one, DMF.

Ravs

Lizking · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2004, 06:54:19 PM »

Miko, take those numbers and multilpy them by 100. There was not enough law reporting to say how many murders took place, and most of them were probably never even found. Pulp magazines aside, most white men in the West were killed by bushwhacking.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2004, 07:41:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pooh21
Not very much as Wild West is hollywood invention.

Actually Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show and dime novels predate the movie industry.

miko2d · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2004, 08:26:50 PM »

Lizking: Miko, take those numbers and multilpy them by 100. There was not enough law reporting to say how many murders took place, and most of them were probably never even found. Pulp magazines aside, most white men in the West were killed by bushwhacking.

Why don't we multiply by 1,000?

Surely, the people were not eager to move west with their families and settle there in towns or in relatively isolated farms just to get slaughtered. Also, there is no reason to belive that people were not socially organised or illiterate or unaware of law. Or that people were easy to missplace in huge numbers without drawing attention.

I cited a historian who specialised in that period. You would have to present some justification for your assertions or sources to convince me I should multiply his numbers.

miko

Eagler · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2004, 08:58:39 PM »

they waited until they rode out of town and killed them in the hills ...

Lizking · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2004, 10:02:41 PM »

Robert Dykstra is not a histoian of the West that I recognise; do you have any further references to him?

Thrawn · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2004, 11:08:56 PM »

"Towns such as Tombstone (in Arizona) and Dodge City (in Kansas) had very low murder rates, mainly because drovers had their guns confiscated at the town limits."

Wow, gun control works, even in the "wild west".

Kanth · « **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2004, 11:52:20 PM »

read DMF's breakdown.

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
"Towns such as Tombstone (in Arizona) and Dodge City (in Kansas) had very low murder rates, mainly because drovers had their guns confiscated at the town limits."

Wow, gun control works, even in the "wild west".

Thorns · « **Reply #25 on:** February 14, 2004, 12:40:06 AM »

They shot em', then drove to Jersey and dumped them.

Thorns

lord dolf vader · « **Reply #26 on:** February 14, 2004, 05:38:15 AM »

yea and the definition of murder was shooting an unarmed man or a child/woman most the time. almost all else was a fair fight. a good saturday night might have 3 or 4 dead cowboys but not a single murder, law was different alot was outside the court system. life was cheap.

check the number of deaths by gunshot wounds. or cemetary size.

AKWeav · « **Reply #27 on:** February 14, 2004, 07:51:02 AM »

Quote

had no problem maintaining orderly environment without much interference from the government.

They didn't have kids growing up with gansta rap either.

Fishu · « **Reply #28 on:** February 14, 2004, 08:00:19 AM »

Isn't this interesting, for all the pro-gun people: "mainly because drovers had their guns confiscated at the town limits" ?

miko2d · « **Reply #29 on:** February 14, 2004, 10:45:32 AM »

Fishu: Isn't this interesting, for all the pro-gun people: "mainly because drovers had their guns confiscated at the town limits" ?

Not really.
First, the phrase is merely a speculation by a historian. Some murders were likely prevented and some weren't. Many people were probably stabbed or clubbed, etc.

The townspeople - without interference from the federal government - established the rules on their property that suited them. Just like any adult american can go to a store and buy a rifle on the spot but a foreigner cannot arrive into the country with a rille.

They did not want armed strangers intent on getting drunk around - they made them surrendee the guns for safekeeping. The townspeople were not limited.
The visitors apparently did not object to being unarnmed in a city full of armed people because they were not worried about their safety.

lord dolf vader: yea and the definition of murder was...

True. A murder is when someone is killed unvoluntarily.
A duel is not a murder because each participand consents to being shot at.

a good saturday night might have 3 or 4 dead cowboys but not a single murder, law was different alot was outside the court system. life was cheap.

Any references on that?
Frankly, it does not sound right to me. In a society where "life is cheap", there is not much order, a lot of robbery and rape, etc. Families with children abandon such places rather than migrate into them.
That is nowhere near what the West looked like.

Why would the life would be cheap in a prosperous, dynamic and growing society where people had a lot of opportunity and looked into the future with optimism? Sure, there was a lot of risk-taking, but of creative type - investing, trying, discovering.

miko