When an Enemy Was a Friend

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by GScholz
The USAAF bombed factories and other war production related infrastructure by day while the RAF burned down their cities by night. If you can't figure out who the Germans hated most then you Sir are beyond reasoning. You are damn straight that had that bomber been an RAF "Night Pirate" the LW (night)fighter would have shot them down. And if the RAF crew got out they would most likely have been lynched by the civilians on the ground.

Just to prove you wrong, the direct quote of a LW nightfighter pilot and how he let an RAF "Night Pirate" go, out of respect for their mutual experience in the horrors over Nuremberg on March 30-31, 1944.

From "The Nuremberg Raid" by Martin Middlebrook.

"Oberleutnant Helmut Schulte had already shot down four Lancasters but his Schrage Musik had now jammed and when he found another Lancaster south of Nuremberg he had to attack with his forward firing guns.  Schulte had no experience of attacking from the rear and was a little frightened of the bomber's tail gunner.  His first attack came to nothing because he had forgotten to arm the nose guns then, as soon as he got into position again, the bomber went into a corckscrew.  Schulte followed for five minutes and, when the Lancaster settled on a steady course again, took up position behind the bomber.

'At first he didn't object to this formation flying, and he must have been watching me as I got into position again.  As soon as I opened fire he dived away and my shells passed over him.  I thought that this chap must have nerves of steel;he had watched me formate on him and then had dived at just the right time.  He had been through as much as I had-we both had been to Nuremberg that night-so I decided that was enough.  I would like that pilot to know that I deliberately let him go.' "

And Middlebrook found the pilot and crew of the 115 Squadron Lancaster.  It was flown by Warrant Officer Howard Hemming and the tail gunner responsible for directing the corkscrew was Sgt. John Carter.

Sure seems to me that Schulte, who had killed four Lancasters and up to 24 British airmen that night, had some respect for that crew of the 5th Lanc he saw.  And he let them go because they'd shared the same experience that night.   96 British bombers downed.  Schulte could have had #97.

remember Schulte's own words about that "night pirate".

"He had been through as much as I had-we had both been to Nuremberg that night-So I decided that was enough.  I would like that pilot to know I deliberately let him go"

Your turn

Dan/Slack
Damn straight I'm beyond reasoning

[hogenbor]

War is hell and makes perfectly reasonable people do horrible things. Maybe the reason for chivalry and mercy is simply that you just need to rember sometimes that you are human and want to remain sane.

[Angus]

Here is the goodie I promised:
"Then there was also another German pilot who was lucky, even though I did shoot him down. He was about to strafe Bone airfield in a Me 109 when my bullets hit his engine, so he crash landed on the field. When I landed shortly afterwards, the pilot stood by his wrecked plane and was chatting with a bunch of soldiers that had surrounded him. The circle of soldiers opened up as I approached and someone said: "Leutnant, here's the pilot that shot you down."
The German approached me, smiling, offered me his hand and said in faultless english: "Sergeant, I am thankful that your bullets hit the engine and not the cockpit. Now the war is over for me and I shall survive. I hope you have the same luck." He then handed me his Luger, saying: "You can keep this gun, it's no use for me any more."
This took place in the morning, and the rest of the day he spent with us at dispersal, completely unfetted. He showed us snapshots of his wife and two children and claimed to be pleased with being a prisoner of war as that meant  that he would live to see his family again. He denounced the Nazis (as in fact most Germans seemed to do before the end of the war) and said it was obvious that the Germans could not win. We tried to discuss flying and tactics with him, but he refused to be drawn into that subject, and we respected his discretion. We were beginning to form a liking for this ex-adversary and felt a little sad when a group of soldiers came to take him away."

FO Jonsson 111 sqn RAF at Bone airfield in Algiers on the 22nd of November 1942

[Dowding]

GScholtz, you are aware I'm sure, that the USAAF preceeded the RAF attack on Dresden with a High Explosive 'splintering' within Dresden to provide more accelerant for the fire bombing?

[VO101_Isegrim]

Originally posted by Angus
Scholzie.....
The RAF shifted to civilian targets under the command of Harris (belive) when....in 1943? I have never understood why they simply didn't do it right away in 1940, after all, at the time :
 

Not really. The first intended RAF bombing was by Churchill`s orders in August 1940, after the (accidental) bombing of London. True that they vacilated a bit till until late 1941, when terror bombing become the backbone of RAF-BC strategy. Churchill himself was very much fond of the idea of terror bombing, in one his letters, dated June 1940, he calls for no less than "... systematic extermination campaign.." (sic!) as a way of conducting war vs. Germany, along the lines of Douhet. If anyone wants, I can qoute that part preciscly.

[Angus]

I am aware of Douhet's theories.
First conducted successfully by the Germans in WW2, and the final episode by the USAAF, also a success, - i.e. a bombing event that forces surrender.
The RAF bombed Berlin in 1940, their first civilian target was in 1940 as well, however the first raids comparable with the London Blitz were not before 1943 as far as I know.
Churchill had a bad situation. He knew what he was dealing with in terms of ethics, - news of horrendous executions, tortures and finally the Jewish exterminations reached him through Enigma, however, this information was not to be "opened". So, there was no method not to be considered in elliminating "the beast", so to say.
Wouldn't have wanted to be in his boots.
Anyway, the casualties of RAF total bombings still only reach to roughly 10% of the Nazi execution number. Bear that in mind.

[Nashwan]

The first RAF raid to target a city rather than individual military or industrial targets within a city was the raid on Mannheim on the night of the 16/17th December 1940.

ie, after approx 20,000 British civilians had been killed in German bombing of London, Coventry, Liverpool etc.

This is of course complete rubbish. The USAAF was tasked with the (so called) precision bombing of German war industry by day.

The largest death toll of any raid or short group of raids was Hamburg. Dresden is possibly second, but the USAAF managed to kill 25,000 in Berlin in a single raid in Feb 45, without any help from the RAF.

First Mosquitoes would illuminate the target area, followed by an initial flight of Lancasters that bombed key road junctions to hinder relief efforts and the fire brigades, then the second wave of Lancs would drop thousands of small bomblets that shattered windows and holed rooftops to create good ventilation for the fire, then the final group of Lancs would drop thousands of small phosphor fire bombs and/or napalm setting the city ablaze.

The RAF used pathfinders to mark the target, followed by the main force with a mix of large HE blast bombs and incendiaries. The RAF didn't use small bomblets to shatter windows and hole rooftops, the only small bomblets the RAF used were the incendiaries.

As to bombing key road junctions to hinder rescue efforts, could you give a source for this? The pathfinders put the markers as close to the designated target area, the rest of the bombers bomber the target markers, nothing else.

The whole purpose of the pathfinders was to mark the target accurately, are you really suggesting the RAF had the accuracy to bomb individual road junctions around a city by night?

The attack on Dresden was in my opinion the worst of the RAF firebombing not only due to the number of civilians killed, but mostly because it was totally wanton. The estimated death toll ranges from 25.000 to a quarter of a million civilians killed.

The best estimates of the death toll are 25 - 35,000.

The 250,000 figure comes from a forgery of a German report on the bombings. The forgery, dated 22nd March 45, claimed 202,040 bodies had been found, and the death toll was expected to reach 250,000.

In 1965 and 1966 the real police reports surfaced.

On the 15th March the Dresden police issued a report saying as of 10th March 18,375 bodies had been recovered.

On the 22nd March the Berlin police issued a report giving the same 18,375 confirmed dead, and expecting the final death toll to reach 25,000.

On 3rd April the Berlin police issued another report saying 22,096 confirmed dead.

[VO101_Isegrim]

Dresden didn`t even happen.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Dresden didn`t even happen.

Neither did Guernica, Spain.

Not even the intended target, the stone bridge, the KondorLegion was trying to hit.

It was market day in Guernica when the church bells of Santa Maria sounded the alarm that afternoon in 1937. People from the surrounding hillsides crowded the town square. "Every Monday was a fair in Guernica," says José Monasterio, eyewitness to the bombing. "They attacked when there were a lot of people there. And they knew when their bombing would kill the most. When there are more people, more people would die."

survivor Jose Monasterio
For over three hours, twenty-five or more of Germany's best-equipped bombers, accompanied by at least twenty more Messerschmitt and Fiat Fighters, dumped one hundred thousand pounds of high-explosive and incendiary bombs on the village, slowly and systematically pounding it to rubble.

"We were hiding in the shelters and praying. I only thought of running away, I was so scared. I didn't think about my parents, mother, house, nothing. Just escape. Because during those three and one half hours, I thought I was going to die." (eyewitness Luis Aurtenetxea)

victim of Spanish Civil War
Those trying to escape were cut down by the strafing machine guns of fighter planes. "They kept just going back and forth, sometimes in a long line, sometimes in close formation. It was as if they were practicing new moves. They must have fired thousands of bullets." (eyewitness Juan Guezureya) The fires that engulfed the city burned for three days. Seventy percent of the town was destroyed. Sixteen hundred civilians - one third of the population - were killed or wounded.

News of the bombing spread like wildfire. The Nationalists immediately denied any involvement, as did the Germans. But few were fooled by Franco's protestations of innocence. In the face of international outrage at the carnage, Von Richthofen claimed publicly that the target was a bridge over the Mundaca River on the edge of town, chosen in order to cut off the fleeing Republican troops. But although the Condor Legion was made up of the best airmen and planes of Hitler's developing war machine, not a single hit was scored on the presumed target, nor on the railway station, nor on the small-arms factory nearby.

Guernica after the bombing in 1937
Guernica is the cultural capital of the Basque people, seat of their centuries-old independence and democratic ideals. It has no strategic value as a military target. Yet some time later, a secret report to Berlin was uncovered in which Von Richthofen stated, "...the concentrated attack on Guernica was the greatest success," making the dubious intent of the mission clear: the all-out air attack had been ordered on Franco's behalf to break the spirited Basque resistance to Nationalist forces. Guernica had served as the testing ground for a new Nazi military tactic - blanket-bombing a civilian population to demoralize the enemy. It was wanton, man-made holocaust.

Note: On May 12, 1999, the New York Times reported that, after sixty-one years, in a declaration adopted on April 24, 1999, the German Parliament formally apologized to the citizens of Guernica for the role the Condor Legion played in bombing the town. The German government also agreed to change the names of some German military barracks named after members of the Condor Legion.

[VO101_Isegrim]

Milo`s great find - a cut and paste text from a TV programme`s site dealing with fine art... . I am sure there are many experts of the Spanish air war amongst them. The site deals with Picasso`s art, telling he was inspired by it; which is somewhat tricky, considering began the work on the art before the even took place. I guess they are just as bad as art historians as military historians.

But serves the cause, right, Milo? "Wanton, man-made Holocaust". Oh sure. The site says so. It must be that way. Even if no proof is offered.

And the reality? The Condor Legion targeted a major crossing point and the railway station in city - the city itself was never a target, neither was it`s citizens, even if v. Richtofen would probably like the idea (and he was always denied from it by the High Command). At least Anglo-French propaganda told so, increasing to the deathtoll to some 7000 (out of the population of 5000, the actual number of deaths was reported to be 98, plus 45 soldiers who died...). Later they worked out the about 800 casulties in Rotterdam to no less than 30 000...

The idea to was get the bridge, and collapse the housing near to it alongside it to serve as road block. As for "Germany's best-equipped bombers" there were new He 111s, but the bulk was made up by Ju 52s, hardly a bomber in the first place, rather pressed into the role, it didn`t even have a bomb bay. Fiat fighters were not present, some old German biplanes provided escort duties, and strafed the city, in which a Republican battalion of around 600 men was housed.

Still the article is not as bad as it could be, I saw a worser one on the net, not any less biased, which argued why didn`t the Germans employed Stukas to destroy the brigde ? To which the answer is clear, the first prototype Stukas did not arrive in Spain for months... but I guess reality is hardly the goal here, the Guernica/Rotterdam/Warsaw "terror bombing" myths don`t serve any other purpose than to justify later Allied acts. Hence their need to rewrite history.

[Angus]

Oh my god, Isengrim shows his dark side again
Okay, I will brief you on ww2's first terror-bombing. No military target, not even a bridge, no air defence. A town crammed with people, some 10 thousands of them. Attacked with bombs and set ablaze, then strafed. Death: unknown. Date: 3rd of sept 1939, location Sulejow, Poland.
Again, on the 13th of Sept, another display of Douhet: The town of Frampol with some 3000 inhabitants DESTROYED.  Death: unknown.
A link for pics and so:
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/pol39/pol39.htm


Needless to say, after some nice and mostly uninterrupted firebombing of Warshaw, the Polish surrendered.

I actually wonder if LW's total deathcount from terrorbombing is any less than the German deathcount from allied bombing?

I also wonder how much it takes to bomb Isengrim away

[VO101_Isegrim]

I do not wish to comment on the examples you pointed out, I would to do some research prior - anyway it makes me think a bit you found it on a polish site... Sure the LW had it`s time over Poland... but the firebombing(???) of Warsaw?! M8, Warsaw was a sorrounded city, besieged, shelled by siege guns, fired on, fired back, and was also bombed. Good to use as an excuse for the RAF-BC, with a bit of coloring it out. Nothing unusual here, the Brits did the same to Caen, an allied city, yet it was levelled in the siege. You call that one terror bombing, too ? I hope not. Budapest was also bombed heavily during it`s 3 month siege, yet I have never heard anybody refer to it as terror bombing, neither to the US raids on it before the siege. Simply because that wasn`t the goal, it wasn`t the nature of the military operations, but a sideeffect. One has to understand where the difference lays between a besieged city, and one in the Hinterland. One has to understand the difference between side effects and intended mass murder. You cannot find intentions of mass murder in the LW`s orders to bomb Warsaw (Richthofen tried to pursuade it, but he was put down by HQ), you cannot find such in the orders of RAF-BC in regards Caen; but you can find such intentions for Belgrade or Dresden.

And you need a bomber, not bombs to take me away. So send Iceland`s best to my address right away.

[frank3]

Enough about the do's or nots, I want more stories!

[MiloMorai]

Yes Barbi we all know that the Nazis are your heroes and can do no wrong.



Von Richthofen said

"Yet some time later, a secret report to Berlin was uncovered in which Von Richthofen stated, "...the concentrated attack on Guernica was the greatest success"

You still want to claim denial? No mention of the bridge, only the town.

"Bombing of Guernica

Republican troops guarded the capital city of the Basqueregion, Guernica while 3000 Nationalist troops lay siege to the city. Nearby,in the town of Burgos, a number of Luftwaffe bombers (an estimated 30)were each loaded with 550 pounds of bombs each. Led by Lt. Rudolf von Moreau,an experienced ace of the German Air Force, the bombers had orders forHitler to bomb the city of Guernica. There were no military targets inthe town except a weapons factory outside of town. Their target was a [/b]smallbridge[/b], the only one into town, that the Socialists supposedly would cross.

On April 26, 1937, the bombers left their base in Burgos and flew to Guernica. Moreau was a head of the group. He flew over Guernicaon a reconnaissance mission. The towns people were alarmed but the local pastor quenched their fears. The church bells were rung and the peoplehid in dugouts. Moreau circled the city and on his next run, he showeredthe city with bombs and grenades. From there, the other planes took several attacks on the city, destroying the central part of the city.

The damage on the city was extensive. After a few hours of bombing, the city was left in ruins. One of the first buildings hit was a shelter for wounded militiamen. Large 1000 pound explosives killed refugees hiding in the dugouts. Fleeing peasants were either killed byexplosives or by machine guns from the planes. Herds of livestock were eliminated. 721 structures were destroyed. The exact number killed is not known although 45 people died in the hospitable. Many more were killed throughout the bombing.

When the smoke cleared three days after the attack, the bridge and the weapons factory were still intact. The officers were told to call the attack a "mistake". Nationalists were told by the Germans that "Red" extremists were responsible for the catastrophe. News of the bombing spread throughout the outraged world. Picasso had a strong reaction to the event. Guernica was different from other bombings because it was a peaceful city that had no reason to be bombed. Motives for the bombing are still questionable. From captured telegrams between Hitler and Wolfram von Richthofen, the German leader of the operation, the bombing was supposed to scare refugees in nearby Bilbao."

Hard to bomb a railraod station when there was none Barbi.

As for Picasso:

"Pablo Picasso was a world renowned Spanish artist. He was born in Malaga, on the southern tip of Spain, in 1881. He was a natural artist, overtaking his father, a painter, by age 13. He went to art school in Barcelona and had a studio in Madrid. When he was a young man, he moved to Paris. Still visiting Spain a good amount, he was offered the position as director of the Prado museum in Madrid. This was a very honorary position for Picasso to hold.

Working at the Prado was Picasso’s first interaction with the civil war. Shortly after he was given the job, the Prado was damaged in warfare between the Nationalists and Socialists. He saw first-hand the brutal aspect of war. After this event, Picasso created his first artistic protest of Franco’s regime. The Dream and Lie Of Franco was a seriesof panels, similar to a newspaper, that criticized all that Franco was.The painting/poems was sold in pieces and the money was given in supportof the Spanish Republic.

In 1936, Picasso was contracted to construct a mural for the Spanish Pavilion. The pavilion was for the World Fair in Paris that would be held the following year. For a good while, he had no ideas onwhat to make that would impact people. Then, on April 26, 1937, when Guernica was hit, he decided to paint a mural on that event.

Starting on May 1, Picasso started to construct sketchesof his mural. He made several different versions of the various pieces. In his first lubrication, or sketch of the whole picture, Picasso laid out all of the figures. He drew in significant detail using his artisticability to make it look abstinently real. From here, Picasso began to "destroy" his work. Picasso said of his work, "In ancient times, paintings were given their finishing touches in stages. Each day brought something new. A painting used to be the sum of actions. In my case, a painting is thesum of destructions. I paint a work, and then I destroy it.""

Notice Picasso did not start his painting, till after the terror bombing of Guernica, May 1.

And some more"

"The Condor Legion attacked in daylight and flew as low as 600 feet as it had no reason to fear any form of defence from the city. It was market day so the city centre was packed with people from the outlying area around Guernica. The first bombs fell on the city at 4.30 in the afternoon when the main square in the city centre was hit. The first target of the bombers was a main bridge that lead into the city. Apologists for the raid have stated that the Condor Legion had selected strategic targets and that the one failing of the raid was the Legion's inability to accurately hit targets from height. The bombers that came in after the first wave instinctively targeted the area already on fire -again, the city centre.

By the time the Condor Legion had left, the centre of Guernica was in ruins. 1,654 people were killed and 889 wounded. The world was horrified but Franco denied that the raid ever took place. He blamed the destruction of Guernica on those who defended it "

[VO101_Isegrim]

Is it only me who thinks this guy is a clown ?