Author Topic: New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17  (Read 6450 times)

Offline Boroda

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #150 on: February 24, 2004, 10:48:23 AM »
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Originally posted by Dowding
. As for the gold - it was payment for arms. It belonged to the UK on a British wreck, but was in Russian waters. I'd say 50/50 was a fair agreement.


We gave you the gold, it was loaded on board of HMS Edinbourgh. You sank it. We had to pay it again. Then we divide it 50/50 after it was salvaged by USSR/UK rescue party.

We payed you 200%, then got 25% rebate, minus the cost of the rescue expedition.

Good business for UK.

Dowding, one of my favourite books is "HMS Ulisses" ("Polar Convoy") by Alister McLean. If you read it - you should understand that Soviet Northern Fleet had only destroyers in the Arctic, either built during WWI or built for shallow Baltic sea, that had a habbit of falling apart in Arctic storms...

Here is a good film for you to watch, about Soviet naval aviation in the Arctic: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0262052/

You can order it on DVD. It's one of the most frightening films I ever saw... Unfortunately I have it in DiVX only with Russian soundtrack.

Offline Boroda

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #151 on: February 24, 2004, 10:50:47 AM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
When did the russians defeat the japanese again? How lng did you delay your second front?


GH, we promised to declare war on Japan and start hostilities no more then tree months after victory in Europe. Manchurian operation started on August, 8th.

Compare it to the promises to start second front in Europe in 1942.

Offline Dowding

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #152 on: February 24, 2004, 10:53:33 AM »
I'd like to see your sources for this HMS Edinburgh episode. None-pravda, please.

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HMS Edinburgh served as escort during World War 2 for the North Atlantic Convoys. On escort duty during the Russian Convoys she was torpedoed by Uboat U456 while escorting Convoy QP11 on May 2 1942, she was carrying 45million in gold bullion.


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On 30 April 1942, the EDINBURGH was struck by two torpedos from the German submarine U456 and seriously damaged, she was taken in tow, but later was able to proceed at slow speed under her own steam. On 2 may, however, after driving off attack by torpedo aircraft, she was attacked off Bear Island by German destroyers, but was agained torpedoed, and later had to be abandoned, being finally sunk by torpedo from the destroyer FORESIGHT, Two officers and 56 ratings were lost.


Sounds like she was immobilized and then scuttled to avoid capture. That would be a common occurance in WW2. No conspiracy.

I'll check out that book some time and possibly the DVD. :)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2004, 10:57:33 AM by Dowding »
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Boroda

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #153 on: February 24, 2004, 11:03:44 AM »
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Originally posted by Angus
BTW, the soviet fighting method demanded many times the troops of anything known so far. Or as Zhukov once put it: "When my troops enter a minefield, my troops move over it as if it were not there"


A famous quote by Eisenhower. He didn't tell that in that particular operation the projected losses from German fire while removing the landmines were 2 times bigger then from landmines if the mine field was crossed immediately. Not even speaking about a chance for Germans to regroup and meet our troops with full strengths.

It's a classic example. Again you are wrong telling me what "everyone knows".

Damn. Sorry. I have been told our "beloved" president fired our government. I have to check what is going on. The new prime-minister is an unbelievable areshole... This is scary. I think I'll take a little break here - this is important.

Offline Boroda

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #154 on: February 24, 2004, 11:26:16 AM »
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Originally posted by Dowding
I'd like to see your sources for this HMS Edinburgh episode. None-pravda, please.

Sounds like she was immobilized and then scuttled to avoid capture. That would be a common occurance in WW2. No conspiracy.

I'll check out that book some time and possibly the DVD. :)


From Admiral Golovko's book: Edinbourgh was torpedoed by a German sub, still was able to move. According to Admiralty directive it was abandoned and sunk by British destroyers.

Frankly speaking I don't remember about second and third attacks, i have to check Golovko's book. Golovko was a Northern Fleet commander during the War, being oneof the youngest Soviet admirals. I remember him not being very friendly towards Brits. I have read his book maybe 15 years ago, but it has to be on a bookshelf at my Father's library or in my flat.

What you wrote shows that I am a victim of this "everyone knows..." too :) Well, not "everyone", but someone interested in navy history...

This is good, but I want an answer to a simple question: why did we have to re-pay that money?

Alistair MacLean's "HMS Ulisses" is one of the best war books I have read.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385041837/qid=1077643159/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-0520524-5063919?v=glance&s=books

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #155 on: February 24, 2004, 11:43:11 AM »
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Originally posted by Angus
Watch it Boroda.
Hortlund is still in the cold war :D


Mid-80s, a Soviet airborne trooper is dropped on a training somewhere in Belorussia. He loses his way, and after wandering through the forest for two days comes to a lonely wooden house. He asks a host, an aged bearded peasant for some fresh water, host leads him to a well and asks: "Sonny, how did you lose your unit? Fascists surrounded you again?"

-"Daddy, what fascists?! The War was over 40 years ago!"

-"Really!? Damn, and we still blow up trains!"

:D :D :D

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #156 on: February 24, 2004, 12:06:24 PM »
Russian soldiers raped and killed half my family on my fathers side. East Prussia 1945, Boroda will of cource deny that any Russian soldier ever did such a thing.

Offline Boroda

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #157 on: February 24, 2004, 01:05:58 PM »
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Russian soldiers raped and killed half my family on my fathers side. East Prussia 1945, Boroda will of cource deny that any Russian soldier ever did such a thing.


My Grand-Uncle was killed in East Prussia is 1945. He was 17.

I am sorry for your family.

Just as I am for millions of innocent people killed, raped and tortured to death in USSR, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, France, Norway, etc.

You came with a sword, like in XIII century. Our cause was just, the enemy was defeated, the victory was ours. We didn't start it.

Keep on blowing up trains. But you'd better do something about your leaders, who want to come with a sword again. And go drink some water so you'll not have a heart attack because of uncontrolled hatred that you show here.

Yeah, it was unfair: that asians on their shaggy mounts came to "rape and murder" civilized Europeans who only wanted to use their skin for wallets and make soap of their body fat. Now go tell me that it's only communist lies.

Some people never learn.

Offline Angus

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #158 on: February 25, 2004, 03:24:22 AM »
My Grandmothers 2 brothers were also killed in the war, they were unarmed fishermen and were machine gunned by German U-Boats. Some hundreds of Icelandic sailors were killed in the war, almost all by U-Boats, some by German aircraft.
And yes, there were Icelandic sailors on PQ-17 and the convoy actually sailed from Reykjavik.
There was an Icelandic double-agent in Reykjavik, sending messages to Germany, which had been written by the British Intelligence. He belives he may have been used to "inform" the Germans about PQ 17, an attempt to lure Tirpitz into a trap.
The RN did a big mistake, no doubt, the  admiral was an ill man, and at the heat of the moment, he probably belived that Tirpitz was nearer to the convoy than even their own TG. There was dense fog, so he issued the scatter order, which proved to be so fatal when the weather cleared up.
Had Tirpitz continued on course, it would presumably have run into the RN TG. That would have been some fireworks: Tirpitz, Hipper und Sheer w. destroyer escorts vs. HMS Duke of York, two cruisers and 14 destroyers, the battleship USS Washington and the carrier HMS Victorious.
That, my dear Boroda, may well be more steel and firepower then at  Kursk
The value of PQ 17, was also, according to your own numbers from HMS Edinburgh, 15 times as much as that precious cargo.
The value of goods destroyed, and therefore not delivered would have been very much more than the loss from HMS Edinburgh.
Will bring more data later on ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline sniper68

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #159 on: February 25, 2004, 03:56:26 AM »
honestly this thread has turned into one of the most outragous arguments ever i must say first off all of this happened a long time ago and im sorry but i think its time for some of u to get over the whole nazi russian jap american thing , seriously some of u are kinda making it sound like every russian or nazi/ german was responsible for some of the crimes commited in wwII , i lost 2 great uncles in wwII and my grandfather but i dont hold either russians nazis or anyone else responcible it was war chitty things happen in war thats pretty much all u can say now i know some of u are gonna rip me a new one for saying that but hey go right ahead     personally i think russian women are hot so im gonna be as nice to the russians guys as possible  ;)  no but seriously this thread has gotton outta hand and i would hope some of u agree

Offline Dowding

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #160 on: February 25, 2004, 04:25:17 AM »
Because they were bastards?

They probably suspected the Fishermen were radio equipped recon ships.

Or maybe it is all Allied propaganda and the Trawlermen were really killed by mutant sea bass, created by evil Allied scientists in their spare time, when they were not busy designing more terror weapons.

But all that is guesswork.
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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #161 on: February 25, 2004, 04:27:30 AM »
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This is good, but I want an answer to a simple question: why did we have to re-pay that money?


My guess is this. Obviously there was a clause in the contract - the payment had to reach British territory before it was considered 'received'. If it was lost in transit, it must be repaid. Blame the Russians who signed on the dotted line.
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Offline Dowding

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New Russian movie announced: Convoy PQ-17
« Reply #162 on: February 25, 2004, 05:58:50 AM »
They didn't consider shooting lifeboats full of holes on sinking ships as a waste of ammo.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #163 on: February 25, 2004, 06:50:25 AM »
Dowding should do a google on "Laconia incident".

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #164 on: February 25, 2004, 07:00:37 AM »
Hortlund should read Das Boot.

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"I swam around until I came across the broken bow of our lifeboat, which, was upside down and managed to scramble on top of it. Even now the submarine did not submerge, but deliberately steamed in my direction and when only 60 to 70 yards away fired directly at me with a short burst from the machine gun. As their intention was quite obvious, I fell into the water and remained there until the submarine ceased firing and submerged, after which I climbed back onto the bottom of the boat. The submarine had been firing her guns for a full hour."


That's an excerpt from the Nuremburg Trials, specifically relating to the interpretation of the Laconia Order. Another:

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"That the witness saw the dead on the deck of the Antonico as he and his crew tried to swing out their lifeboat; that the attack was sudden, lasting almost 20 minutes; and that the witness already in the lifeboat tried to get away from the side of the Antonico in order to avoid being dragged down by the said Antonico and also because she was the aggressor's target; that the night was dark, and it was thus difficult to see the submarine, but that the fire aboard the Antonico lit up the locality in which she was submerging, helping the enemy to see the two lifeboats trying to get away; that the enemy ruthlessly machine-gunned the defenceless sailors in No. 2 lifeboat, in which the witness found himself, and killed the Second Pilot Amoldo de Andrade de Lima, and wounded three of the crew; that the witness gave orders to his company to throw themselves overboard to save themselves from the bullets; in so doing, they were protected and out of sight behind the lifeboat, which was already filled with water; even so the lifeboat continued to be attacked, At that time the witness and his companions were about 20 metres in distance from the submarine."


Seems to me that there were U-Boat crews willing to take the Laconia order for its full meaning, particularly the part relating to the destruction of ship crews.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2004, 07:17:08 AM by Dowding »
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.