P-38 Drivers

[Kegger26]

I was flying CAP over an emy feild the other day, waiting for our goon to show up so we could capture the feild. When a Knit P38 shows up to crash the party, he made a quick run on our cap, I assume seeing that he was out numbered he turned to run.
 My two squad mates were in Hurris and Spits and couldnt catch him. They stayed behind to cover the goon while I went in pursuit in my P51. It wasnt long before I closed in to close for comfort for him, and he climbed hard. My first thought was what a knuckle head this guy is going to be dead really soon. I climbed up alittle smoother than he did and figured I would have a shot. I did not.
 He rolled onto his belly and dove for the water. ( we were fighting outside A199 on the trin map) He then started a slow right hand bank. I thought again ohh goody now he is dead. He out turned me on the first turn, I let out one notch of flaps, and gave myself alittle more rudder hopping to pull off a shot, by turn three I still didnt have one. He changed turn directions to the left. I kept going straight for a sec or two, then kicked in the wep and pulled a high yo-yo. He saw this and tried to turn into me but I landed some hits on his number two engine and his fuel.  Now with one engine dropping oil and him losing fuel he reversed his turn again. I pulled a second high yo-yo, and rolled into him again this time landing my hits and taking off his right wing tip. He stalled out and rolled into the drink shortly after.
 So what I am asking is how can I learn to fly a PJ like that. I mean sure I got the kill on him, but it was a hard earned kill. I kept him on the defensive durring the whole fight, but I know that if I slipped up one time and gave him any chance he could get away or worse yet kill me.
 I love busting tanks, even more than killing planes. My Mustang is a great tank buster but it doesnt take hits well. Plus it doesnt carry those four extra rockets and a 20mm. The problem is I cant dog fight well in a P38. I would really like some tips. You dont have to air them out here so everyone and there brother knows them and learns them, but if you could set up a time in the DA where I can learn from you, or e-mail me some things that would be great.
 AKAK you and I had a 30 min fight in JU87s once in the DA, and I think it was a draw, you got one and I got one. Each fight lasted around 20-30 mins each. I would love for you to teach me how to fly the PJ in a dog fight. Mostly stall fighting since busting tanks is low and slow work. Thanks.

 Kegger26


 Edit.
My e-mail is glock30gunner@msn.com

[ra]

Some thoughts:

- the P-38 in AH is the L
- depending on the fuel load, he should have owned you
- if you want a tough jabo, take a Jug
- for any plane the best way to learn to dogfight is to fly and die a lot

ra

[Kegger26]

I always fly with 100% if avl, I am not sure what his fuel state was, but I had only been flying for about 20 mins.

[Steve]

by turn three

This 38 pilot was either a noob or a guy with little experience in a 38. Three roundies in a 38 vs 51, you would have been in the tower vs. a 38 vet.  
No offense but with your tactics and all the fuel you were carrying, a 38 vet would have made quick work of you.

[WldThing]

Originally posted by Steve
This 38 pilot was either a noob or a guy with little experience in a 38. Three roundies in a 38 vs 51, you would have been in the tower vs. a 38 vet.  
No offense but with your tactics and all the fuel you were carrying, a 38 vet would have made quick work of you.

If the 38 was slower,  the P-51 could have made a couple turns with the P-38,  or he could have just went into BnZ mode,  IMO  No P-38 can climb with a P-51 if it has more Energy at beginning of the fight.

[Steve]

You bet WT, well some ponies, including yours could.... but in this scenario there was problems from the start of the turns:

He out turned me on the first turn,

This must mean that the speeds aren't such that the  pony's high speed turning comes into play and that the 38 isn't so much slower than the pony that it can't get around quicker.

I didn't see a film but unless there was an apparent immediate shot as the 38 rolls over and dives for the water,  I would have stayed up and set up shop over him.  What would you have done there?

[Kommandant]

I agree on the whole, but as a P38 Junkie I have some tips on how you can outmanuver most anything with the exception of a Zero.

1 - When Flying the P38 and wanting to make sharp turns, cut your throttle, you can turn on a dime and give the enemy nine cents change

2 - Use Flaps when doing shallow to medium turns

3 - Never take a fuel load more than 50% unless you are on a long mission. Take drop tanks. 50% Lets you turn with the best as soon as you drop your tanks and will get you home.

4 - Why have one engine when two is better? If your P38 Engine gets knocked out or is loosing pressure, keep it going till the last moment. As soon as your engine dies and you are in a turnfight, use Diveflaps. You can turn just as fast with the proper application of less throttle and dive flaps. Trust me I have taken on spits many times this way.

5 - Remember you are faster than most of the plane you will be going against, Use this to your advantage. Drop in and zoom out. Burn off your E and then turnfight, DO NOT turnfight at more than 320 mph or you will present too easy of a target to an experienced pilot.

Those are my tips, hope they help.

[WldThing]

Originally posted by Kegger26
It wasnt long before I closed in to close for comfort for him, and he climbed hard. My first thought was what a knuckle head this guy is going to be dead really soon. I climbed up alittle smoother than he did and figured I would have a shot. I did not.
 He rolled onto his belly and dove for the water. ( we were fighting outside A199 on the trin map) He then started a slow right hand bank. I thought again ohh goody now he is dead. He out turned me on the first turn, I let out one notch of flaps, and gave myself alittle more rudder hopping to pull off a shot, by turn three I still didnt have one. He changed turn directions to the left. I kept going straight for a sec or two, then kicked in the wep and pulled a high yo-yo. He saw this and tried to turn into me but I landed some hits on his number two engine and his fuel.  Now with one engine dropping oil and him losing fuel he reversed his turn again. I pulled a second high yo-yo, and rolled into him again this time landing my hits and taking off his right wing tip. He stalled out and rolled into the drink shortly after.
 

Ok Steve,  lets see if i can understand this and give a good answer.  

Kegger is chasing the 38,  His 51 is closing fast,  the P-38 goes into a hard climb,  and Kegger is taking it easy on his stick.  -  (Wrong move right there,  what i would have done is cut my throttle,  and tried lead shooting him)..  Kegger overshot the P-38 since his P-51 had more speed.

Ok now lets say i was Kegger and i missed the P-38 in that climb,  So now im on top with more E and the P-38 is trying to escape again,  by diving to the deck,  i start pursuit..  I'm closing once again,  this time he turns to the right?..  I am once again faster than him,  since my P-51 is faster on the deck.  So NOW,  depending on the P-38 pilot,  if i go into climb mode right after my attack,  he can reverse me and kill me in the vertical,  since the E was pretty much equalled with the 38 diving to the deck.  So what i would have done is cut the throttle once again,  and turned with him,  i am POSITIVE i would at least get one clean shot.  If you could work your throttle right you would have a shot in that 1st turn.  You might have to lead shoot,  but like i said im pretty sure you would be in the ballpark.

Now as Kegger said,  the P-38 out turned him on the 1st turn,  and that is because the P-38 had less speed(Remember less speed=better turn radius).

I let out one notch of flaps, and gave myself alittle more rudder hopping to pull off a shot, by turn three I still didnt have one. He changed turn directions to the left. I kept going straight for a sec or two, then kicked in the wep and pulled a high yo-yo

 

I cant imagine whats actually happening here,  so i cant comment.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Steve


I didn't see a film but unless there was an apparent immediate shot as the 38 rolls over and dives for the water,  I would have stayed up and set up shop over him.  What would you have done there?

I would have done the same.  No reason to surrender your advantages when given to you on a golden platter.

But speaking as a P-38 flyer, the engagement Kegger described is a P-38 driver's dream against a P-51.   We usually spend all our times chasing them.  

Anyway, in that engagement the only reason why the P-38 driver lost is that he was always on the defensive and never tried to take the initiative away from Kegger.  By all accounts, it appears the P-38 went on the defensive when he first encountered Kegger and his countrymates, probably why he bugged out.  Your description of his evasive maneuvers show that he had no intention of fighting unless as a last resort.  From his flying, he was probably an experienced pilot but not in the P-38 and probably didn't have a grasp of what it's capable of.  In the right hands, the P-38 would have toasted Kegger in his P-51 on the deck like that.


ack-ack

[Lazer]

51 doesn't stand chance against 38 under 200MPH.  Not if 38 pilot is decent.

[Raptor]

Thats why the P51 should E fight the P38. But because kegger blew alot of his E, the P38 probably could have climbed up and got a good shot at him. The P38 does not need equal speed to climb with a plane. Because of its large wingspan and 2 powerful engines I think if the p38 pilot wanted he could have gotten kegger when he was climbing up. With 1 engine it is not as easy though.

[Dessy]

But before you get too comfortable with those two engines, be careful not to try and climb away from spits and G10s. The former like to pull a trick where they can keep their nose pointed at you longer than another 38 could (eh? torque?) and the latter, well, they can climb. Understatement.

But a P51 under 200mph, not a chance as so many others have pointed out. If the 38 goes vertical the 51 will have trouble with torque, and if it goes into horizontal scissors it will easily outfly the 51. This 38 pilot obviously didn't realize just how well the lockheed can fly with a few notches of flaps.

BTW, ack-ack, do you go full flaps in stallfights? I think I have a film of you vs. animal where that's the case for the whole engagement. I've always been under the impression that anything more than 3 flaps is usually counter-productive unless you're trying to push over a stalling loop...

[TheManx]

Full flaps is best for stallfighting. Cut throttle on the downside and they won't retract on you too often. I haven't played much lately or I'd show you, but as it stands I'd probably get outturned by a CV group right now.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Dessy
But before you get too comfortable with those two engines, be careful not to try and climb away from spits and G10s. The former like to pull a trick where they can keep their nose pointed at you longer than another 38 could (eh? torque?) and the latter, well, they can climb. Understatement.

But a P51 under 200mph, not a chance as so many others have pointed out. If the 38 goes vertical the 51 will have trouble with torque, and if it goes into horizontal scissors it will easily outfly the 51. This 38 pilot obviously didn't realize just how well the lockheed can fly with a few notches of flaps.

BTW, ack-ack, do you go full flaps in stallfights? I think I have a film of you vs. animal where that's the case for the whole engagement. I've always been under the impression that anything more than 3 flaps is usually counter-productive unless you're trying to push over a stalling loop...

If needed to get the angle, yes I will use full flaps in a stall fight and as Manx pointed out, use my throttle to keep the flaps from auto-retracting.

As for climbing away from a Spitfire or a bf109-G10, I'm sure that would depend on the situation and relative E states of each plane.  If you have the energy in the P-38 to do it, then I'd use my energy to go vertical on them, not to out climb them.  While the G-10 has a really powerful engine that gives it almost a god-like climb performance, it just doesn't do as well in the vertical.  Same with the Spitfire.  I will sometimes use a spiral climbing maneuver if my E state is enough to keep me out of their gun range.  I'll do it in the opposite direction their torque pulls their plane, so as we get slower in the spiral climb, they have to contend with the torque.  The only Spitfire I've seen to be able to stay with me in a vertical maneuver was a Spitfire V flown by Leviathn.  But then it's widely known he cheats so I guess it doesn't count.

ack-ack

[Lazer]

If you don't use flaps fully, don't expect to outturn a b17.