Author Topic: The blind leading the blind?  (Read 2079 times)

Offline beet1e

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The blind leading the blind?
« on: February 19, 2004, 07:35:45 AM »
Picture this scenario. I’m buzzing along in my F4U all alone. In the distance I see a co-alt con on a reciprocal heading, coming right at me. It’s a Spit. Alrighty then. Experience in AH has taught me always to expect the HO. So I dip my nose 10° to gain a little extra speed and to force the bogie into negative G if he really wants his HO attempt. He does, and the spray starts at about 600 yards. Immediately after he has passed by, I look back to see what he’s doing next and at the same time pull vertical to gain an alt advantage, and begin to circle above where I think the bogie will be. The bogie has done a split S and is trying to come up to me. But oh! I’m now much higher than he thought I was, and as he begins to stall I can dive down and bag him. His turning doesn’t help. The roll rate of the F4U means I can egress from that dive in any direction I choose, at a moment’s notice. Scratch one Spit.

The same scenario played out a few minutes later – another F4U this time. Same routine. Attempted HO, split S (though some of them make a flat turn instead), try to come up underneath me, find I’m much higher than they thought, and ruh-roh… stall, boom. The other trick these guys try is to force the HO at all costs. I was on a guy's 6 last night, and he reversed to HO – I didn’t get him on that pass but went vertical. The bogie (an F4F) obligingly came around underneath me only to find I was much higher than he thought, then tried to pull up and over to force a second HO. Nice planform view for me – Boom. And then – get this – he says on Ch1 “no surprise to see an F4U attempt the HO” LOL! Got it on film, but I don’t want to embarrass the guy, so won’t post…

What is it with this crop of noobs? I’m no expert, but try to learn what I can. These guys just seem to be picking up one bad habit after another from fellow noobs. Their routine is always the same: [list=1]
  • Attempt the HO.
  • Split S or flat turn to try to face the con ASAP.
  • Point at the con as best they can, spraying from whatever distance they happen to be at.
  • Realise they’ve made a pig’s ear of it, and start turning frantically – but oh! All their E is gone. And very soon, so are they!
  • Whine on Ch1 that it was an unfair kill, or that the con “attempted an HO”! :lol
Doesn’t anyone help out in the TA any more? I know it can be difficult, what with the time differences. But it seems to me that a large swathe of players just don’t want to learn anything new.

Offline ra

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The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2004, 07:50:46 AM »
Nothing new about newbies.

Offline Morpheus

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Re: The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2004, 08:03:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e


What is it with this crop of noobs? I’m no expert, but try to learn what I can. These guys just seem to be picking up one bad habit after another from fellow noobs. Their routine is always the same: [list=1]
  • Attempt the HO.
  • Split S or flat turn to try to face the con ASAP.
  • Point at the con as best they can, spraying from whatever distance they happen to be at.
  • Realise they’ve made a pig’s ear of it, and start turning frantically – but oh! All their E is gone. And very soon, so are they!
  • Whine on Ch1 that it was an unfair kill, or that the con “attempted an HO”! :lol
.


1- Head on's are too risky in my opinion. And never tend to go in my favor. I simply try not to put myself in that situation.

2-In the MA, its seems latley, for the most part I have had to let the con engage me first, force the over shoot while making him burn his E just so I can get a fight in with out allowing him to run away.

3-Spraying just looks too n00bish and I would be emarassed to be caught doing it. Sniping on the other hand at a "track star", that can be done with ease for the most part up to and beyond 1k.

4-Is there a set of guidlines I need to follow to turn my plane?

5-I never associate with Ch1... You all know that:eek:

I see you point/gripe, I think anyways beetle. But new players in the game depending on what side they are on, are taught to hate the other side by those bitter Vets that love nothing more than to pork strat; fuel mostly, to ruin a good fight... Lets be realistic here for a moment, if thats posible in a game, we can't tell others what to do. They pay to play just like you and I, that alone is enough for me not to try and tell others what to go and do with their time...
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Online Shane

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The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2004, 08:04:40 AM »
cheer up beet1e, before you know it, they'll all be flying high and timid and only engaging with a bunch of buddies or some other advantage. i mean once they realize how great you are they can only but follow your lead. right?
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
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Offline Kweassa

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The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2004, 08:06:05 AM »
Since death has no immediate impact, and their initial skill levels are much too limited to understand more profound tactics, the first immediate source of "fun" to a newbie is to start shooting at something - whether they survive through the HO or not.

 HO is a viable tactic, but  only when the terms are right. In most cases, it's a dangerous and risky business - unless someone is pretty much sure of absolute advantage in forward firepower and plane durability, I wouldn't think a real life pilot in a real life combat situation would  ever enjoy a Head-on encounter.

 But ofcourse, newbies don't care about that. They wouldn't be newbies if they did care about something like that.


 Thus, when you evaded his attack, and denied him the shooting chance, and suckered him into a classic rope, his immediate response is "this is no fun".
 
 Normally, when someone feels his maneuver/tactic resulted in a disaster, and it is obviously not working as expected, he would try something else.

 However, when newbies continue to do that stuff, it can only mean that their typical unimpressive first merge, is working in other cases. That's why they keep doing that stuff.

 The odds are, average pilots rarely meet superior pilots. Most usually average pilots fight with other average pilots. And in those cases, the gung-ho HO, works for them. They're in the same planes(usually Spits, La-7s, or N1K2), fighting at same altitudes, fighting with same attitude and same low skill level.

 And in those sort of fights, usually, the guy who turns and points their guns onto the opponent first, wins. Especially, if their plane has something like .50s or Hispanos mounted, who wouldn't want to try a HO?

Offline Fariz

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Re: The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2004, 08:08:44 AM »
For the fist few weeks or even months player has problem hitting anything. His acm is bad, situational awareness is terrible, and it takes a lot of time to make gunning over 3% barrier. In this situation HO is his best chance, so he try it again and again. People who learn this game a bit know, that HO is 50-50, and their best chance is to avoid and then beat the opponent with better flying. So, what you describe is normal, not new and it will ever stay this way -- HO will be very popular in AH.

Offline Morpheus

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The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2004, 08:15:08 AM »
why complain about them? Help them... "show them the way" beetle;)
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Online Shane

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The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2004, 08:19:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MoRphEuS
why complain about them? Help them... "show them the way" beetle;)


hence the thread title, "blind leading the blind"

;)
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline Morpheus

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The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2004, 08:28:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shane
hence the thread title, "blind leading the blind"

;)


Doh!
teehee...

Shane ol buddy ol pal...  Was going to try and find ya last night but I guess you had logged off... You wanna hit the DA tonight?
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Offline TweetyBird

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The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2004, 10:36:26 AM »
Why not dig up some of your old films from 3 years ago and show us how a skilled newbie plays. Thinking the newbies starting here or somehow inferior to when you fist began AW or AH or whatever, is just narcissistic.

As a newbie, I can tell you it isn't easy starting - in fact its very difficult with no buffer. Its amazing the game even attracts new users as they can look forward to months if not years of frustration.  In fact, I don't see the help in this post at all. If our mistakes gives you an easy kill, why not just take it and move one to a more "interesting" fight? Duh, newbies make mistakes that a veteran pilot can quickly exploit - STOP THE PRESSES!

If the goal here is to enlighten us newbies, why not post some articles like the primers Urchin posted in the help section?

This isn't all directed at you - I'm also venting on another p38 driver :)  After shooting me down about 5 consecutive times, he felt compelled to announce on channel 1 that I stall a lot. Duh :)

Offline Nod

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The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2004, 11:51:16 AM »
Beet1e thats the exact same trick I use to use exept it works extreamly well with at Fw 190A-5

Offline lasersailor184

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The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2004, 02:59:57 PM »
Hmmm, i'll have to try that one.
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Offline hogenbor

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Re: Re: The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2004, 03:04:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fariz
and it takes a lot of time to make gunning over 3% barrier.  


Maybe if you've never flown a flight sim. Mine started out at about 5% the very first tour although I hadn't played a flightsim in years (and never on-line at that). Although I suck bad after my two months leave, I can still shoot, especially after mastering that damn 30mm on the G-10.

But what's the point beetle? Easy kills are easy kills. If those noobs persist they will learn, or they will leave and other noobs will take their place. I'm in for 1.5 years, still learning... slowly.

Offline Tilt

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The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2004, 03:30:41 AM »
What I miss on Ch1 is friendly tips...............


Such as..............


"try pulling out the merge a bit sooner / later"

"try to use throttle to prevent  over shoot"

"try to anticipate your exit angle when going vertical"


We know when we make mistakes........... we can see (some times) when our opponents make them.

If those we know cockup we can all have a good laugh at their expence................. for others a few hints would not go amiss.

It takes but a few seconds........... if its not graciously recieved then so be it.

Frankly I find moaning about the quality of "sport" here a bit weak. Particularly if success of that sport is based upon feeding off the ignorance of others in the first place. One might almost think it a form of masked bragging.
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Offline straffo

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The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2004, 03:35:16 AM »
3% is the first month kill ratio

at least it was mine when I started :p