Author Topic: The blind leading the blind?  (Read 2065 times)

Offline Shane

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7945
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2004, 05:08:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
What I miss on Ch1 is friendly tips...............
 


it's real hard when th etext buffer moves so fast and many people, especially noobs may not even know they can squelch 6 (system landed messages).

this is why i try and drag people to the DA.

:)
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2004, 05:48:10 AM »
Tweety,

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. The point of the thread was to observe that some folks aren't learning (maybe don't want to learn) and that maybe the training facilities aren't sufficient for their needs.

What we've seen in the past year is the formation of the noob-steamroller squads. Capture territory by sheer numbers. Pork & Auger. The way the game works is partly to blame. It does not reward stealth attempts to capture bases - it does the opposite, what with all the different warning systems that a base is under attack - siren, flashing map, "base under attack" etc... So the noobs go the numerical supremacy smashdown route. Those guys can be difficult to kill because usually they have killed themselves before you get the chance!

I met up with a few flightsim guys for a drink some months ago. We were all talking about where we had gone since the WB meltdown began. One guy had tried the AH TA, but there was no training. All that happened was that he was shot down repeatedly by a guy (whose handle most of you would recognise) who was getting his jollies. No training at all.

The other point is that some guys don't want to learn. I remember trying to help a guy after he had handed me his own head on a plate, and he basically told me to piss off. :( The attitude amongst many seems to be "why bother to learn, when a new plane is just a mouseclick away..."

Offline WldThing

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2004, 10:17:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shane
it's real hard when th etext buffer moves so fast and many people, especially noobs may not even know they can squelch 6 (system landed messages).

this is why i try and drag people to the DA.

:)


Ya i have to agree with Shane,  when ever i give out some help im always wondering will they catch my message in time,  do they know how to use the ~ ..

Offline Dessy

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2004, 10:30:20 AM »
Quote
Especially, if their plane has something like .50s or Hispanos mounted, who wouldn't want to try a HO?


Or BOTH :p

Apparently seeing a P-38's nose pointed at them was pretty good incentive for LW pilots to change direction.

Offline TweetyBird

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1775
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2004, 11:07:23 AM »
>>Sorry if I hurt your feelings. The point of the thread was to observe that some folks aren't learning (maybe don't want to learn) and that maybe the training facilities aren't sufficient for their needs. <<

I was mostly venting, thats why I added the post was directed entirely at you. For the most part, the veterans do provide a lot of help for us (and believe me, its appreciated).  I shouldn't have posted that. It was after a long, long night if you know what I mean :)

I detest the pork and auger thing also. It just reeks of poor sportsmanship.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2004, 11:09:26 AM by TweetyBird »

Offline mars01

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4148
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2004, 12:03:12 PM »
SO Beetle next time you get hoed, are you going to take the guy toi the TA and help him or just hit the BBs and cry.:D

Offline SLCR

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 220
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2004, 12:46:21 PM »
Speaking of training noobs, last night as the Rooks were seriously taking over a big chunk of Bish real-estate I was flying in the same area as XBRIT and he was showing a noob the ropes.   Over country channel and vox I could see/hear all the questions presented to XBRIT which he answered without hesitation, sarcasm or wtf’s.  I applaud XBRIT for his patients and understanding.  Hopefully this was one new guy pulled out of the newbie sludge, the sludge that has continued to mess up the MA.

:aok


-SLICER

Offline Cobra412

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1393
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2004, 02:25:28 PM »
I'd have to agree with alot of folks in here about training. It'd be nice to see more folks give newer folks pointers.  I'm trying to learn the G10 right now and don't know many who fly it.  Well on the Bish side that is.

I've learned some from the book I'm reading but since it's text book engagements there it doesn't always apply.  In two equally matched planes you very rarely see them turn nose to nose as would be expected.  And you rarely see a nose to tail turn in the merge against a disimiliar fighter.  

I've seen some groups use pinching maneuvers but it's rare.  Though they are more difficult to handle than an unorganized flight it's more challenging.  I also don't think I've seen even once a Thach Weave maneuver used.  More often than not you'll see the same maneuvers or some type of crazy maneuver.

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2004, 04:45:45 PM »
Has anyone ever made use of the "mowing machine" tactics perfected Eugene Valencia?  I've never run across it in the main arena.

Curious,

Shuckins/Leggern

Offline WldThing

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2004, 05:07:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Has anyone ever made use of the "mowing machine" tactics perfected Eugene Valencia?  I've never run across it in the main arena.

Curious,

Shuckins/Leggern


Explain the move.

Offline kj714

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2004, 05:26:06 PM »
I don't think there is anything wrong with the learning curve the way it is. People who get into the game seem to start picking up the ropes in a month or so. It's a complex game with lots of choices, so that doesn't seem too unreasonable.

Offline TimRas

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 560
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2004, 12:58:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by WldThing
Explain the move.


It was rather tactics than move.  The name "Mowing Machine" was derived from the alternating attacks by the two planes of the four plane division, which traded roles as attacker and top cover, producing action resembling that of the blades of a lawn mower. Basically the two planes make BnZ attack while the other two provide top cover. When this pair zooms up the other comes down,  keeping continuous pressure on their targets.

This tactics requires seamless teamwork, communication and dicipline which is why it is rarely seen in MA. Done right, it would be as effective in MA as in RL.

Offline _Schadenfreude_

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2004, 02:23:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412
I'd have to agree with alot of folks in here about training. It'd be nice to see more folks give newer folks pointers.  I'm trying to learn the G10 right now and don't know many who fly it.  Well on the Bish side that is.

I've learned some from the book I'm reading but since it's text book engagements there it doesn't always apply.  In two equally matched planes you very rarely see them turn nose to nose as would be expected.  And you rarely see a nose to tail turn in the merge against a disimiliar fighter.  

I've seen some groups use pinching maneuvers but it's rare.  Though they are more difficult to handle than an unorganized flight it's more challenging.  I also don't think I've seen even once a Thach Weave maneuver used.  More often than not you'll see the same maneuvers or some type of crazy maneuver.


I'm flying the G10 a lot these days - though you need an unporked field so you can up with full fuel and d/t - am on most weekends flying for Rooks - wing up if you want.

ps the trick is to continually ride the throttle so you stay in the 400mph band, still have sontrol and very little can catch you.

Offline Cobra412

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1393
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2004, 03:16:35 AM »
Tim so it's basically "Double Attack Doctrine" but using a full flight of 4 instead of just two?  Atleast thats what it sounds like.

_Schadenfreude_ I'd love the help but I dont' ever leave the Bish side.  That fine line of 400 kinda bites in that plane.  I can trim out of deep dives majority of the time.  But it can get there in a hurry if I don't pay attention.  I'm having more problems with the nose mounted weapons on the other planes more than anything.  

I'm still working on perfecting the merge too.  Against a faster con I typically start away from them at less than 2 k out. THen I'll turn back in at around 1k or less.  If they keep turning in behind me and are too fast.  I'll barrell roll back into them and underneath to gain E.  Then if I've timed it right I should be able to get a shot off.  If they don't turn behind me and extend or go vertical I'll do a shallow climb out and turn back in for a second merge.  Problem is I don't always follow that.  I have a tendency to go to the vertical if they do right off.  And most of the time they out zoom me.  Sometimes I'll do a shallow spiral climb back to them hoping to catch them coming out of there loop.  Hard to time it right though.

Offline Delirium

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7276
The blind leading the blind?
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2004, 03:46:33 AM »
Generally, I never fire HO unless the same 1v1 bandit has done it to me on a previous pass. I also make a point to say on channel 1 "Was that worth it? It gave me angles to get behind you." or "If you're going to only fire HO, at least be good at it."

Its really a sore subject... the only foreplay I like is the angles or BnZ fight, to have some guy try and cheapen it with a HO irks me.
Delirium
80th "Headhunters"
Retired AH Trainer (but still teach the P38 selectively)

I found an air leak in my inflatable sheep and plugged the hole! Honest!