Two questions about defense

[hogenbor]

Scenario one :

I'm in a P-38 (in which I am not very familiar), about 18k or so. After a nice furball everything went quiet for a while so I decided to grab alt. Two cons incoming so I head towards them. I'm closing but see that they are much higher then me so I reverse and try to get seperation. The cons follow me agressively and soon a Fw-190D is within firing range with a P-51 not far behind. I accelerate with zero G and WEP but compress badly. Before I can dump speed or retrim to at least get some control back the 190D kills me, not hard, I was going straight with no options to maneuver. But what could I have done if I still would have had control? Any ideas?

Scenario two :

Capping a field, enemy ups more than we have in the area so the odds are slowly getting worse. After a B&Z pass in my P-51B a Typh, La-7 and a Spit start chasing me. The Typh and the Spit fall behind, so does the La-7 but only marginally (I had a slight E-advantage to start with). When the La-7 start to close due to it's higher top speed I pull as hard a turn as I can, when speed drops give one notch of flaps and try to outturn the La-7. However, speed drops to much, I have to ease my turn and the La-7 gets me. I was under the impression that a P-51B can outturn a La-7, but this does seem to be the case. No alternatives here, but I would like to know if a La-7 can outturn a P-51B, sustained.

[Tilt]

Scenario 2

From an La7 perspective the 51 I am most cautious about engaging is the B............. this may be due to the fact that better pilots will tend to use to it to farm perks.

Given this the La may have pulled a lucky snap shot whilst you were under his nose.

Until you are able to equalise e between your self and bogie then sustained figures count for little.......... the La7 will not have pulled the same G as you did in your break turn............ if you then flapped and pulled harder....even a quite aggresive hi yo yo from the la7 would have given him both angle and e over you.

Flapped and slow your 51 is more stable than the La7 but your challenge is to bring the fight down to that level......(safely)......... and of course avoid all his freinds that arrive after a few minutes of manouvering.

Easier said than done but a flap switching rolling siccors is your best bet to utilise the sustained turn rate and stability of the 51B to achieve this IMO.

[F1Bomber]

hogenbor you forgetting that the la7 has a Maximum Instantanous Turn rate so does the P51, the thing that may of happend was that he used more of is instantaneous turn rate to turn within your turning circle. Only problem is that even if you have a better maximum sustained turn rate than the la7 he may have a better one than you at lower speeds. And Pretty simple if you have a MSTR ( maxium sustained turn rate ) of 20 dps, at 200mph and the la7 has one a MSTR of 15 dps at 200mph, but he has a MSTR of 25 at 150mph then hes going to trade more speed to turn within your turn radios.

Its complex when you start reading the figures, that i dont actualy have right on me now to show you. But i would recommend you try to get ahold of EMD ( Energy Management Diagrams).  They really help you out in understanding what you can and cannot do in aircraft.

F6Bomber.

[hogenbor]

It was a pure tail chase at top speed at the deck (about 3k at the location it took place). The La-7 did not get a lucky shot in, speeds were already dropping to sustained turn speeds (E-state was the same when starting the turnfight). Initially I pulled as hard a turn as I could and kept my plane at near blackout until speed dropped too much. Then I dropped a notch of flaps and tried to ride the stall. Then I noticed that I gave away too much speed and simply couldn't turn harder to avoid the La-7 gaining on me.

My question is mostly if I would have had a chance if I haven't bled too much speed with flaps. I know how twitchy the La-7 can be under these circumstances and was hoping for the other pilot to snaproll into the ground or to break the turn. But it seemed to me that the P-51B was too sluggish when the speed was gone to have a chance.

Would like this in the TA with someone... so see who can get the edge best. P-51B is my favourite plane, and more confidence when facing a La-7 under the circumstance mentioned would be nice.

I could have tried to break contact with a scissors type of maneuver, especially when he would have had to black out to follow me but he still would be able to chase me down. And I think an La-7 can roll as least as well as a P-51.

[NoBaddy]

Just a thought...

Had I been the La7, I would have chopped the throttle, stomped the rudder (to create drag) and yoyoed. Were both your turns flat? I generally don't have problems with La7s that try to flat turn, however, when they start going vertial they eat my lunch .

[gofaster]

Use rudder to change the direction of your turn.  Chances are, you'll be under the LA-7's nose and he won't see you sliding off to the side.  Force him to waste his glowing softball ammo.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by hogenbor

I could have tried to break contact with a scissors type of maneuver, especially when he would have had to black out to follow me but he still would be able to chase me down. And I think an La-7 can roll as least as well as a P-51.

A pure (reversing)scissor manouver could have been used to drag down the La to a slow co e state. But as you say the La could roll with it......(and he will have many snap shot opportunities)....... a rolling scissors requires use of sustained turn rate with  rudder and can benefit from flap during part of the cycle............ if the La7 is to follow then he can choose lag or lead pursuit or indeed allow over shoot............

If the La chooses lead then he is blind to your manouverings and loosing e faster than you..............plus his inherent instability requires constant corrective inputs

If the La chooses lag then he does not have a guns resolution and your sustained turn advantage will begin to pay off....... once slow you could enter a flat turn but frankly your rolling scissors are far more potent............ you will end up on his tail while he is fighting with his ac to maintain the manouver....

Frankly as an La7 pilot I avoid the rolling scissor.......... and just go vertical (basically over shoot out of plain) and choose angles.

Having said that when I have been shot down in  sort of 1 v 1 encounters with aggresive P51B's they have always used angles better than I have.

[Howitzer]

Personally I don't fly the B model much, but if I get in that situation with a D model, generally I wait till he gets about D700 off my 6, then I'll pull back on the stick, drop one notch of flaps and loop, but I won't push it till I black out, cus it will burn too much E.  When I pass the top of the loop I raise flaps and wep to get my speed back up.   Sometimes I'll do this with a yo-yo as well.  The one thing you really don't want to do with a pony is flat turn it.  I don't know a whole lot about ACM, but flat turning a pony takes away your best friend which is speed.  So generally I keep him looping, and maybe even throw in a yo - yo till he makes a mistake (many la la pilots are new to the game and can't control it as well, however there are others, i.e. shane who aren't going to fall for this well).  If I get real desperate I'll pull a loop dropping flaps as I go around the loop, raising them at the end, your loops get tighter, but your speed also drops.

La-Las are tough, especially low, if you don't think you can get one up above 10k, try and play with him long enough for him to make a mistake.  This is of course a 1vs1 scenario, if his friends come around, good luck to ya  =P

[nopoop]

Originally posted by hogenbor
Scenario one :
Two cons incoming so I head towards them. I'm closing but see that they are much higher then me so I reverse and try to get seperation.

I don't fly the 38 but my philosophy is different than most. In that situation it would be time to play. You have a Pony and a 190 with altitude, your flying a great manuvering plane. It would be time to see what they got.

Instead of "egressing" for separation, I'd have kept heading toward them off angle in a gentle climb to bring her to manuvering speed.

Then let the games begin. I'd take that fight everytime it was offered.

Yes you might die, but you died anyway.

You lost a good opportunity to do  pilot "thingys" and see what you could do.

This tour I'm going in too deep over and over again. It's ugly. Got real frustrated and took a yak up to do some huntin. Killed four, burned a full tank and ran out of gas short of the runway, ditched and felt much better.

Now it's back to ugly, got stuff to work on..

[sonar732]

I'm in a P-38 (in which I am not very familiar), about 18k or so. After a nice furball everything went quiet for a while so I decided to grab alt. Two cons incoming so I head towards them. I'm closing but see that they are much higher then me so I reverse and try to get seperation. The cons follow me agressively and soon a Fw-190D is within firing range with a P-51 not far behind. I accelerate with zero G and WEP but compress badly. Before I can dump speed or retrim to at least get some control back the 190D kills me, not hard, I was going straight with no options to maneuver. But what could I have done if I still would have had control? Any ideas?

How high were they and how far away?  I would've watched them for a while to figure out if they were coming straight to me.  If not, I would've done a immelman to gain alt and instead of turning away, turn towards the contacts.  Either way...I agree with an ealier post...force the fight if you think you'll die.  At least you have honor to fight back.

[Ecliptik]

In the 38, you did the worst thing I can think of against a higher 190 and 51.  You dove away.  Sure, with dive flaps and proper trim, you can stay controllable up to about 520 mph, but even at that speed,  higher Doras and Ponies will still chase you down and bite.  There's no way you'd escape if they were determined to come after you.

Nopoop is right, better fight your way out.  The 38 is well suited to tango with the poorer turning 190s and P-51s.  I would have kept on heading towards them, climbing or diving (as needed) to attain good maneuvering speed, then attempted to bleed their E down to parity by thwarting their inevitable BnZ attempts.  With each pass you survive (using whatever moves you have up your sleeve to take away their angles), the more the battle shifts to your favour.  And if you lose, oh well, every hard fought engagement makes you better.

[Montezuma]

Originally posted by hogenbor
No alternatives here, but I would like to know if a La-7 can outturn a P-51B, sustained.

It is close, but the La-7 will win that fight - assuming the La-7 driver is good enough not to go over the edge.

[wipass]

Two cons incoming so I head towards them,   first major mistake,

in an LA7 no p51 b or d is going to beat me, ever, stay above if poss 7 k, and extend extend,

wipass

[Steve]

Scenario 2:  only one notch of flaps?   What were ya doing w/ elevator trim?

[Flyboy]

Originally posted by wipass

in an LA7 no p51 b or d is going to beat me, ever, stay above if poss 7 k, and extend extend,

thats not true IMO, the p51b can out preform the La7.

i remember 1 sortie i had in a the Bstang

it at the end when i was allmost out of ammo and started RTbing
a La7 sneaked on my 6 and was closing, i lured him in to a slow barrel role keeping my plane just over his reach, untill he overshot me, i went for the snap shot and got him with my last rounds.

still have the film somewhere, was a great sortie