Author Topic: formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)  (Read 2992 times)

Offline Citabria

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AH truely needs:
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formation autopilot.

this autopilot should be able to hold position in:
1. level flight
2. smooth climbs (anything not abrupt)
3. smooth descents (anything not abrupt)
4. shallow turns (anything not abrupt)
5. altitude above leader (ie: 500ft below or 500ft above)
6. position relative to the leader (ie: 3 o clk, 8oclock, 6 o clock)
7. distance from leader (ie d300, d1.0, d2.0)

this would require autothrottle but would still be limited in ability to hold formation by leaders speed which would need to be less than full power

players would be able to select any friendly players aircraft within d4.0 and form up on it. this would allow players to all form on a single leader by using different distances in the a/p ( d1, d2, d3 etc)or to have each player form on the player they are next to or winging with while that player forms up on the leader.

when formation is broken by abrupt movement by lead or wing they should only need to press a reform key to bring them back to their spot in formation wihtout need to retype any formation setup commands.


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the reasons why formation autopilot is such a good idea:

less effort=more fun and allows more coordination and SA

the entire formation command will bring structure to coordinated online flying which is totally nonexistant.

and it will look cool as hell      

autoformation command would be a true delight if added to AH.

the players in AH do not have the ability to fly in complex formations due to the nature of the interface through wich the simulation must exist.

and more importantly formation flying (ie gaggle formation) has no benefits in the icon tag environment

real world formation flying can be done entirely with peripheral vision while looking directly ahead in most instances while in these online sims its impossible to get the necessary field of view for realistic formation flying. (yes I have real world formation flying experience)

scenarios are always in a gaggle formation with no military structure. formation flying is nonexistant in the MA.

icons make formation flying totally unnecessary and in most instances flying a good formation makes you more vulnerable in the MA especially if in a buff.


this idea has been around a long time and really is a gem of an idea for online sims that is badly needed if a more accurate sense of ww2 combat is desired.

the limitations of a small computer screen are ussually to much to overcome for the most newer players.

the level of complex formations available to the players with this system is endless. finally we could see true buff boxes and line abreast formations


this is the one autopilot feature I think would be beneficial to all who play AH.

(and I hate autopilot         )

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Citabria

"You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have sharks with friggin laserbeams attached to their heads."



[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 11-11-2000).]
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline sax

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2000, 01:01:00 AM »
You say it well.
sax

Offline Jekyll

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2000, 01:33:00 AM »
Only real problem I see with this is ... how do you define 'formation'?

Do you base it on the point of view of the formation leader?  Because, never forget that each player will see the formation slightly differently due to the effects of netlag.  

Say I'm the leader, and my wingie pulls in 100 yds level with my right wing from my POV.  I'm doing 300mph.

Now from my wingies POV, he'll see that he is in the lead by about 200yds or so.

Nice idea.. but hard to incorporate on a practical basis.


Offline AKcurly

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2000, 01:33:00 AM »
Yup Cit, SimGuild's "Battle of Britain" had formation autopilot and it was extremely neat.  I liked it.

curly

Offline Citabria

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2000, 01:51:00 AM »
base it all on the players fe jekyll

the one who forms up controls their position from the lead.

just like we fly formations now the autoformation will be totally reliant on what is on the players fe


think of it as a standard level flight autopilot with speed control...

the difference is the reference for the each players personal autopilot would be the aircraft they are forming up on instead of the earth.

if the autopilot has a tolerance for lag/warp by allowing nonperfect distance position holding then warp and lag would not be a problem.

minor netlag and warps will actually make a structured system like this look very realistic with the aircraft moving around a bit.

remember the formation autopilot idea is only for your personal aircraft and based on what you see. what the other guy sees is irrelevant in all but massive warps/lags.
the leader has no control over your plane and the formation autopilot merely keeps you in position while you man your guns or scan for the enemy.


HiTech no doubt has the talent and ability to implement somthing like this if he feels it is worth having and it has been implemented and well recieved in other sims so its not like asking for the impossible.


[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 11-11-2000).]
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Furious

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2000, 03:11:00 AM »
quote "...players would be able to select any friendly players aircraft within d4.0 and form up on it..."  Citabria

How would this occur?  If I hit .autoformation at d4.0, do I warp into position?  That'd be a neat evasive tactic, sure to piss everyone off.  Perhaps one should form up and then within certain parameters, such as maintaining a certain distance at the proper alt for X amount of time, the command could be activated.

Also, if a wingman and not the leader falls out of position, maybe to act as bait, does the remainder of the formation break-up?  I wouldn't think it should.

I like the idea.  For those that say it isn't real enough I ask you this, how real is it that I can go outside to have a smoke while my craft climbs to alt?  Seems to be just a concession to the limitation of sitting in front of a computer.

Furious

Offline StSanta

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2000, 06:23:00 AM »
BAH, citabria, BAH.

Zat might bee a soloosjon for yoo allierte schweinhunde, but es is nicht gut fur us LWs!

You see ve haf ze necessary skills alreedy. It is gut only fur zoe sat cannot fly, or doe not vissh to take ze time to LEARNED eet!

Seriously, formation flying is a skill. Aces High is a skill based game. When our squad is up, we mostly fly in a loose formation, but at times we do a schwarm to scare the toejame outta the enemy. And it works. Here's how I rate an upcoming fight:

1) Am I alone, or do I have a wingie?

2) If more than one enemy, formation/type of airplane. If the same type and in a good combat formation, I expect heavy opposition.

3) Altitude

4) Window of escape for enemy and myself

5) Vicinity of friendlies/other enemy aircraft

and some other variables I cannot think of right now as I just got outta bed.

Formation flying can be learned. Tight formations require more attention to whoever you're forming up on, but it does so in real life as well. A combat spread Schwarm will only require a look now and then and a correction if you're drifting too far. At least in a schwarm, the only one ya have to keep an eye out for is the dude you're forming on. Unless friendly collisions is on, in which case ya better look at yer closest wingie plane too.

This is an advanced sim/game, not Quake. If people cannot be bothered to learn to fly proper formation, they shouldn't do it. That's my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}

Offline Fishu

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2000, 07:19:00 AM »
StSanta,

One little notice... bombers needs such 'formation autopilot'
When there comes a bit fighters around, formation usually gets messed up when you can't control the plane and gun the same time..
one pair of eyes and one monitor isn't sufficient to keep up with target(s) and formation.

With fighters.. I've had no problem - been flying in formation within 30 yards stable  

Offline Fishu

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2000, 07:21:00 AM »
StSanta,

One little notice... bombers needs such 'formation autopilot'
When there comes a bit fighters around, formation usually gets messed up when you can't control the plane and gun the same time..
one pair of eyes and one monitor isn't sufficient to keep up with target(s) and formation.

With fighters.. I've had no problem - been flying in formation within 30 yards stable  

Offline Wingnut_0

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2000, 07:43:00 AM »

For bombers only, this is not a bad idea all together.  But I tend to lean more to santa's way of thinking.

If something like this was implemented, any hit on a bomber in this formation should disengage it from autoformation immediately.  Then the pilot would have to reform (and hopefully not from D4...more like D600).  

If someone can disengage a bomber from it's formation, he should be rewarded  

Another take on this...I wouldn't take a single LW craft against a formation..cause with 1 gun a bomber can take u out OVER D1 now can u imagine 3 or more in formation firing 9 or so guns at u???  Personally I probably would never be able to get close enough for a shot.  And I'm not grabbing an Allied AC  

Anyway..food for thought




------------------
Wingnut
GeschwaderKommadore
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The quality of the box matters little.  Success depends upon the man who sits in it  -  Baron Manfred von Richthofen

Offline Fishu

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2000, 09:06:00 AM »
Yea.. those super defensive turrets should be downgraded to their realistic levels
I have heard alot stories of fighters taking over 50 hits of .50 caliber from B-17 formations and not even having damage.. but in AH thats pure impossibility, even 1.5k hits does effect sooner than that...
Accuracy is pretty good with those lasers too.

Offline Sunchaser

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2000, 12:45:00 PM »
Learn to fly formation!

It is not easy but can be done.

I flew B17s almost exclusively when I flew in the main arena and if bombers were in proper formation prior to  pilots jumping to guns or bombsight the formation would hold.

It was not easy, nor should it be, it took much practice and minor heading differences when going to auto pilot for bombing or gunning can totally mess up a good formation.

A big part of the immersion was trying to get and hold tight formations and the thought of several B17s following lead around like little puppydogs is ludicrous.

If you want AI controlled wingmen or targets go fly EAW.



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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?

Offline Sunchaser

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2000, 12:47:00 PM »
By the way, EAW is a very good offline flightsim, in case anyone thought I was being unkind referring to it.

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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?

eskimo

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2000, 02:31:00 PM »
StSanta, Sunchaser;
You guys are missing the point.

1. In AH we very rarely see formations beyond 3 bombers, this would encourage it.
2. Most AH pilots do not have the experience or patience to fly a good formation.
3. In RL bombers, such as the B-17, had 2+ guys to drive the plane as well as 6+ guys to man the guns and watch out for enemy fighters from all angles.  In AH 1 person must do everything.  My squad can fly formation as well as any in AH (often 8 to 14 ships), but we cannot man the guns while we are in the drivers seat!  As soon as a pilot jumps to a gun after flying he drifts away from the other planes in the flight.  If a fighter, or fighters, wait at a safe but threatening distance, the bombers will become so scattered in a few minutes that they will be out of range to provide good mutual support.  It does no good to hold a formation if you do not benefit from mutual defensive guns!  An Auto-Formation mode would be more realistic than not.   
4. Pilots would still have the option of flying manually.  You would actually get more opportunities to fly formation manually if auto-formation were to be adopted because you would probably see more formations to fly with!
5. Even good formations would be vulnerable to a good fighter attack.  In all of the time that I have spent flying in AH, I have seen very few good formations (all planes within D600 or so).  Probably the best formation that I have seen (not flown by my squad) was a B-17 5-ship.  I solo attacked this group with a series of four vertical attacks and managed to down 4 of them.  (All of them fired upon me on each pass and they hit me on my fourth attack, I lost a wing and B-17 #5 got away and hit our HQ.)

My squad (The Buccaneers) flies manual fighter formation at least a few times a month.
In bombers, we have devised and adopted a method of auto-pilot-formation.  It involves .speed settings and rudder only turns from the gunner positions.  We can keep a tight formation while manning our guns for as long as 10 minutes.  Sabre described it well in a previous post.  I will find it and add it to this post.

eskimo


eskimo

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formation autopilot: why it is good. (no purchase necessary. details inside)
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2000, 02:39:00 PM »
Originally posted by Sabre (Rojo)


                          Received some nice feedback on the below article on Buff Formation flying, so I thought I'd post it here. It has
                          really made a difference when the Buccaneers get together and "buff it." Enjoy.

                          "Formation Flying In Aces High: Going from Mass Gaggle to Combat Box" by Sabre

                          Anyone who has tried to fly close formation in a flight simulation such as Aces High is aware of how difficult it is
                          just to stay within a few hundred yards of the other buffs in your group. That problem becomes infinitely more
                          difficult when the formation – or “mass gaggle” to use a bit of Air Force marching slang, since most of these
                          amateur attempts at station keeping bear little resemblance to the tight “pulks” we’ve read about – is suddenly
                          assaulted by the inevitable pack of interceptors.

                          It’s happened to many of us: we’re at the controls of our Flying Fortress, weaving and bobbing all over the place to
                          stay at least near another B-17. We finally have pulled together a loose defensive formation when one or two
                          enemy fighters appear. As the fighters attack, all the pilots jump to a gun position – typically, every pilot in the
                          group will jump to a gun position, regardless of whether they’re a likely target or not – and begin banging madly
                          away at the assailants. While the're all busy playing Sgt. York, the formation quickly looses any coherence, coming
                          apart in a “star-burst” that leads to easy pick’ins for the follow-on attack.

                          This article describes a simple station keeping technique for keeping the pulk together through repeated fighter
                          attacks. It takes discipline and practice, but will increase your chances of making it to the IP ten-fold. It involves
                          careful use of the .speed command, a gentle touch on the rudders, and a firm hand on the throttle.

                          Because limits placed on the number of on-line players in Aces High (or any other on-line sim, for that matter),
                          your faced with a cruel choice. Either a take a large formation, with pilots filling the duel role as gunners, or take
                          half as many buffs, with two players in each (one as pilot, the other as a dedicated gunner). In the former, you
                          sacrifice formation integrity during attack for a greater number of defensive guns. In the latter case, you have
                          tighter formations, but half the number of guns. This becomes extremely important when face with multiple bandits
                          attacking from multiple directions.

                          Note: WarBirds (WB) has “Sgt. Otto,” i.e. the computer will automatically act as gunner, firing at targets within the
                          pre-determined parameters built into the AI. However, even in the case of WB, human gunners are preferable, as
                          they can work together, prioritize threats, and are not restricted by factors that constrain Otto.

                          The method described involves flying from the nose gun position, instead of the cockpit. Why fly form a gun
                          position, and why the nose? First, it offers an unobstructed view of the planes ahead and just to the sides (you
                          don’t care how close you are to aircraft behind you…it’s their job to stay close to you. Second, while in the gunner
                          position, the .speed command and “trim-on-speed” (TOS) autopilot still functions. Also, the rudders and throttle
                          still work, and manipulating either will not disengage the autopilot.

                          Simply put, the lead plane (here after referred to simply as “Lead”) uses "Alt-X" to "trim on speed" (TOS), and
                          selects a speed using the .speed command that will maintain the desired pitch attitude at a selected throttle
                          setting. Lead MUST fly at something less than 100 percent (a manifold pressure (MP) of 40 is recommended), for
                          reasons I’ll explain shortly. Lead announces his .speed setting to the flight, and must immediately relay any
                          changes to it he makes. For a B-17 at 50% fuel load and 12x500 lb. bombs, a speed of 140 will give you a
                          reasonable climb rate at 40 MP. Lead also fly’s from the nose gun, and uses gentle, pre-announced course
                          corrections using only the rudders.

                          Everyone else simply uses the .speed cmd. (with the TOS engaged) to adjust range/closure rate to Lead. The
                          rudder is used to adjust lateral spacing, and throttle to adjust altitude. Remember, the TOS autopilot cause the
                          aircraft’s pitch to increase or decrease in order to maintain the speed set using the .speed cmd. If Lead has 140
                          set, and you have 140 set, you will both remain stationary to one another relative to two-dimensional spacing. If
                          you’re sinking relative to Lead, throttle up; if rising higher than lead, throttle back. If you’re too far behind Lead,
                          increase speed using the .speed command; if getting to close, set a lower speed. Throttle adjustments are again
                          used to remain at the same altitude as lead. This all sounds somewhat complicate, so I’ll give you an example.

                          EXAMPLE: Let’s say I’m the second ship in a three plane combat box. All pilots jump to the runway. Lead calls “roll”
                          and everyone throttles up. Once airborne and in at least a loose formation, Lead now throttles back to MP 40, then
                          sets a speed of 140 using the ".speed" command and hits Alt-X to trim to speed. Everyone else in the formation
                          does the same, then jumps to the nose-gun position.

                          Now let's assume that I notice I’m starting to fall behind. Therefore, I set a climb speed of 145. This lowers the
                          nose to gain speed, so without increasing throttle, I’ll drop below the formation. Thus, I throttle up. Once I’ve
                          closed to within 150 yards, I reset speed to 140, then chop throttle to 40 MP, coasting up to a position 75 yards
                          behind Lead. A slight corrections with the rudder offsets me to Lead’s left, with the other Fort offset right.

                          Once I’m in positions, it’s extremely simple to simply tweak my throttle setting to maintain my horizontal position
                          and my rudders to keep lateral position. Now when we’re attacked, all pilots can jump to whatever gun position
                          necessary (remember to keep your feet off the rudder pedals while gunning). A formation stabilized in this manner
                          will hold together for a long time while it fends off an attack. The key is for Lead to announce any changes in
                          speed or direction in advance, and not to attempt either when enemy fighters are nearby. Once you reach crusing
                          altitude, Lead must pick a speed and throttle setting that will hold level flight. REMEMBER, this is only effective
                          with the .speed command. If Lead trims to level with "X" once you level off at altitude, instead of "Alt-X," it
                          becomes much harder to hold formation -- triming to speed is the key to holding your formation together.

                          Obviously, if fighters attack while you’re on your bomb run, you’ll still be without defensive firepower. The way to
                          get around this is to have one or two planes forego the bomb run to shoot at the fighters. Remember, the tighter
                          the formation, the easier it is to defend. Some enemy pilots in Aces High will steer clear entirely of a large tight
                          formation at high altitude. The Buccaneers have managed to fend off four and five enemy fighters at a time with
                          only six Forts. The trick is to jump back as often as possible to the nose position, in order to arrest any formation
                          drift that occurred during the attack.

                          This method really becomes quite intuitive very quickly. I had it mastered within the first ten minutes of flight when
                          introduced to it. If I can do it, anyone can. Good luck, and good hunting.

                          ------------------
                          Sabre, a.k.a. Rojo
                          (S-2, The Buccaneers)