I need some help....is AH a game or a sim?

[eskimo]

I like the leathality, and I think that it is realistic.  Sometimes 1 or 2 hits will take down a B-17, and sometimes a zero can take 50 hits.  It all depends where.  

<S> to HTC, I am still amazed!

eskimo

[lasse]

Hi there    

I have been a paying customer since day one, and I aint planning to change that    

I did however download WB and signed up (heck, it was a year since I quit my account there, had to try it again), well, I just quit my account there again(after the first month), there is a HUGE difference between WB and AH, and it all goes in AH`s favour    
There are two tings about AH`s flightmodel I feel is wrong(at least feels wrong), but I actually dont have a clue about flight physics, so what do I know?.  

1. I feel the planes are slow(little sense of movement), even when I dive, and I know I am going fast, very fast, I still dont feel it does that, in WB I actually get the feeling that I am diving fast.

2. The planes feels to similar to me, I thougt a P47 should feel VERY different from a Spit, but it dont, not to me at least, there are some difference but not much.
Naturally it might just be that it all are late war models, and therefore shall behave relatively similar, I dont know.

However, AH is the best, most realistic online (offline?) flightsim I know about, and I am shure Im gonna stick around for a very long time, looking forward to the next release like a child looking forward to chrismas, every single time a new release is just around the corner.

BTW Pyro, how about a update on the next version, it is a while since the last one, aint it    ?


PS. Any plans to implent support for MS Force feedback in the close future ?
It would be nice if you did  

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The Wild Vikings
Commanding Officer
lasse-



[This message has been edited by lasse (edited 08-24-2000).]

[craigr]

re WB

 

The planes feels to similar to me, I thougt a P47 should feel VERY different from a Spit, but it dont, not to me at least, there are some difference but not much.

Thats the thing I noticed most about the difference between WB and AH. Glad I'm not the only one feeling that way...

DmdBgm

[Jekyll]

Is AH a game or a sim?  Easy question.

It's both  

It's a game in the MA where we have Spits fighting Spits.. B17's being attacked by P47s etc.

It becomes a sim when we get the scenarios rolling over historical terrains so we can re-create the great air battles of WW2.

And IMHO I have no doubt that the ballistics of gunnery are fine.. it's just that its presently too easy to get guns on target because we have an icon system that measures target distance to the exact yard.

HT, Pyro.. why not just an icon system which records distance to the nearest thousand yards?  It would certainly make judging an opponents energy level much more difficult, and it would also help to prevent some of those long range (over 600yd) sniping shots.

Just D8, D7, D6, D5, D4, D3, D2, D1, D0

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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps

[Cabby]

Quote:

Re WB's:

"2. The planes feels to similar to me, I thougt a P47 should feel VERY different from a Spit, but it dont, not to me at least, there are some difference but not much.

Are you serious????  

Cabby


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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"

[Ogre]

I don't know the answer to Yeager's question but the truely sad thing is, that no matter how much "realism" you put into a Sim, it will always be considered "just a silly game" by my Wife  

-Ogre

[Sparks]

Yeager
I think it's both but for me the flying is a Sim and the strat is the game.
I started AH because I love flying and A/c and this is the most realistic I've come across. The strat aspect adds the gaming side.

[Vila]

Well, Pyro kinda hit it on the head.  The game can be a very detailed "simulation", but as long as we play it for entertainment, it's a game as well  .

Now, the question is, how much of the game is a simulation?

IMO, AH is primarily a sport that uses WWII planes as sporting equipment.  What do I mean?  Well, although AH does an excellent job of simulating the flight characteristics of these aircraft, the Main Arena doesn;t resemble actual WWII air combat all that well.  Honestly, for me, I hope that a "game" does develop where I can see more actual WWII-like combat (ala the old scenarios in WB), but I also like the "quick fix" I get from AH.  That's why I think AH and WWIIOL will be able to co-exist on my HD (as long as they can co-exist with my bank account anyways).

Anyways, just some thoughts

Vila

[Maniac]

Right now its an game, if we ever get another arena without the fantasy settings it will be more like an sim...

Regards.

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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

[Yosus]

Pyro said : "OTOH, we really don't care about trying to model or make people learn a 20 step  sequence just to start their engine. "

Will you go for 15 steps? Are you willing to haggle?  

It seems like BoB and CFSii will have micro cockpit/engine management ... so they say ... maybe one day AH will have some too?  

Back to the topic! For me AH becomes a sim when my levels of immersion reach high levels ... it becomes a game again when I realise I'm sitting in front of a monitor with a big goofy grin, after my wife tells me to shutup or I'll wake the twins  .

Cheers
Yosus

[Sharky]

Yeager,

Your problem is your getting bored.  Pure and simple.  WB and AH are exactly the same thing.  They both use historical aircraft (FM flight dynamics etc) in a non-historic environment (The arena)

Now WB does have some events that help to put the aircraft in a historic environment, but even there some licence is taken to make up for the lack of some aircraft that aren't modeled and terrains that haven't been made.

Those things are coming to AH.  Terrains are being produced, scenerios are being generated.  Look at it as AH being WB the Return    Although it started with a better graphics engine and better physics modeling this is where WB was around ver 1.0 or so.

As to the FM modeling how can you be so sure that the FW didn't perform as well in real life as it does in AH?  I know I don't I wasn't there.  I wasn't flying for my life and niether was anyone here.  All we can go buy is some numbers and the written word of those that were there and those often conflict.

The guns in my oppion seem to be very well modeled.  I've been around firearms all my life and have seen the devistation something as small as a .30 cal round can do at ranges up to 1000 yards.  The problem with using true ballisitic data in the sim is we have little of the factors that make hitting some thing at that range difficult.  For instance go fly with icons turned off and try to tell the differance between a con at 800 yards and 500.  It's damn near impossible and that 300 yard differance would make a hell of a lot of differance in your ability to hit that target.  

I personally think the biggest step toward realism HT could make without seriously affecting playability would be to do away with range data in the icons.  Notice I said the range data not the icons.  The icons are necessary due to the limitations of the computer monitor and computer graphics.

What I suggest is to forget about the holes in the sim and concentrate on the things you like.  The problems are known (wings falling off Mustangs and some small errors in flight dynamics etc) and are being addressed.  The historical events/arenas are coming (no not fast enough for me either  ) Cut em a little slack in the time department, they are working on it.

I am convinced that HTC is commited to providing us with the best flight sim possible while still providing us with something that is fun and enjoyable.  Until they prove me wrong, I'll continue to support them as best I can.

Sharky

[sourkraut]

Pyro -

How about throwing a few cubans in a box and sending them my way. Thanks. Oh and send a stack of those lighters you're using.....

You guys are doing great, keep up the good work. (No perk planes, please).

Sour

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Sour
JG-2 Richthofen

"Hey - someone has to be the target...."

[Yeager]

I dont want to convey the impression that I am dogging HTC.  AH is a superior program in every sense.  Graphics, interface options, FMs....
 
AH is the pinnacle of computer based 1940s era combat flight simulation. I have gone out of my way to tell the guys at HTC how impressed I am with their achievement!  Because of this, I feel I can discuss issues relavent to my experience in AH and get honest feedback from the developers as well as the community! (this has been demonstrated and I personally thank all of you).

What I wanted to convey (and was tastefully rebuffed, somewhat re-aligned by pyro) was that the way I approach AH is from the perspective of a simulation rather than a game and I feel (lately) that the game is compromising my impression of what a combat sim should be doing for me.  

Pyro nailed me right in the spiffy when he commented on how narrow the margin for error is.  That was what was bugging me.  If I dont approach it with red flags all over the place I just go BLAMMO!  There seems to be very little in the way of defensive options.  Either come in high and fast with 4 20mm cannon or dont bother.  In thoughtful retrospect this is probably (as pointed out by pyro himself and others) very accurate.

I just need to take some time away and regain my combat posture.

Yeager


[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 08-24-2000).]

[Hazed]

yeager dont worry i second your thoughts.  
you are not alone in wanting simulation but like pyro says 10 stage engine starts would be dull.all i want is to fly and fight in a realisticly handleing simulated aircraft that matches the RL counterparts as closely as possible,but,after reading books on the war and reading that 109's for example were dogs to fly needing constant trimming etc I have come to realise that HTC have done a fantastic job on the level of difficulty and have removed the stuff(realistic engine starts,constant attention etc) which would in all honesty bore me to death  
all i can say yeager is if it turns too gamey ill start yelling with ya and maybe others will join in.but for now im happy enough to keep paying the subscription even though i hate the f4c too  
htc always comes up smelling of roses so roll on ju88 and lanc and 1.04  

 

[Hajo]

All this thinking hurts my head,game or Sim?
Lets put it in perspective.  It's a game that happens to be a WWII Air Combat Flight Sim. First, if it weren't a game we'd get to only make one mistake <G>  I use this venue to relax and have fun.  If it weren't fun I wouldn't participate.  Comparing AH, WB, and AW is like comparing apples to oranges.  WB is wayyyyy to expensive to spend any time playing.  I've found AH to be better myself
then WB ( I only flew it two weeks)  Now I flew AW over 5 years. almost 6 now <G>.  I quit AW once I played AH for many reasons.  First of all the aircraft modeling I appreciate more in AH then AW.  Secondly, yup, ya get bored seeing the same thing day after day, if it weren't for the SAC skins and Terrains in AW I probably would have quit a long time ago.  And the flight modeling in Full Real in AW....let's just say they had their idea of how it should be....and i had mine <G>  This game is developing, and not stagnating like AW3 did.  You'll find a lot more former AW players coming to this venue because of what I've just mentioned.  On-Line gaming, or even flight Sims can't just depend on the community to keep the game going....sooner or later people look around for something different.  And what satisfies them best will be what they play!  Notice I said play <G>We're all here because we like AH!  If you'd have flown AW as long as I did, and see nothing really but maps change in almost 4 years...you'll know what I mean.  Kudos to AH for taking the time to model, fly, and keep track of connection issues by participating with the players.  It's a good sign that someone takes the time to see what is actually happening.  Not waiting for E-Mail to come in <G> and then seeing if the complaints etc. were legitimet weeks later.