Another Buff Whine (with cheese...and FILM)

[humble]

About my only real beef with AH is it's totally unrealistic gunnery model for buffs. I have a clip that high lights just how far off we are...I do need help to post it...and I'm open to anyone who has a different viewpoint.

verbal description as follows...

engaged a low b-17 in a typhoon utilizing a spiral dive attack from the bombers high 10 o'clock or so...rolling into an attack on its far wing from a hi 8 oclock position with a steep angle (est 60-70 degree). speed maiontained at 450-460 with positive 2G lead till range closed...initiated a neg 2 g push to attain a wing shot at 50 meters. Firing started at 120...At a range of 25 meters (from pilot F1 view...I'm above the tail with clear damage to right elv). At this point the tiffie is HAMMERED by multiple impacts and loses its horz stabalizers and elv. (both). At the time of impact only the top turret has any real view. I do not believe the volume of fire is from 1 gun position only or that the damage is possible from this limited window. I certainly recognize the reality of a "golden bb". A pilot hit..an engine hit..a coolant or oil leak..or losing a single control surface are all somewhat possible. To suffer such a severe loss on such a fleeting shot is a farce. The thought of now facing bomber groups with this BS is very unappealing.

I am very open to suggestions, critique and/or disagreement but feel the clip will speak for itself. A 460 kt tiffie in a neg G dive flashing within feet from the tail would be almost unhittable...and certainly should not be "hoseable".


would love to post this...I'm doing "Mr Dad" on field trip with son at 9am...gone for two days...I'll check before I go..or relight this one when I get back.

[mrsid2]

Because of netlag the buff pilot hammered you already on the way down and you experienced the hits while you were behind his fuselage.

A buff with a good gunner (well, B17 mainly) is almost impossible to shoot down without suffering damage or dieing yourself.

A buff with me as gunner, however, is easy to shoot down. Mainly because I climb AFK mostly  

[Hangtime]

About my only real beef with AH is it's totally unrealistic gunnery model for buffs. I have a clip that high lights just how far off we are...I do need help to post it...and I'm open to anyone who has a different viewpoint.  

Attackin a well gunned buff in this game[/i] is a tuff proposition. I'd say in the game[/i] you got a 50/50 chance in a 1 v 1 engagement unless you get crafty and develop a system based on large amounts of painful experience via repeated trial and error...

..then your must refine  your implementation of the system into the game[/i] to the point it becomes routine, automatic, unthinking...

.. then yer chances go down.  

[Buzzbait]

S!  

I'd say you got too close.

You don't need to be that close to hit a big target like a bomber with the Hispanos, or even MG151's.   I would say take the shot at between 450 and 300 yrds and then break away.

[Urchin]

Yea.. he did get to close.  However, by attacking the buff you get to close  .  

He hit you while you were coming down, you just didn't recieve that info until you were (on your end) out of the field of fire of most of his guns.  Even if he hit you when you were 50 yards from his wing.. it only takes 23 .50 caliber rounds to kill a 190A8 from 500 yards- and the Tiffie ain't that much tougher.

[humble]

My reasoning behind this attack "style" is to avoid the AI effect of every gun hitting you...if I am to far out then any hit by the gunner will be multiplied by total number of guns with a view...at 1.2 in your at risk...by attacking from above in a spiral dive you limit view to top turret (hopefully). I've looked at clip a number of times...I dont think I give more than 1 gun position a look at any one time. I dont think tail ever has a shot...belly and top cant hit at same time in close....sounds like a solid hose but I cant see from where...or how. I dont think a single fighter attacking a single buff should be so far off...I count 8-10 flashes on buff4+ on wing and 4 or so on tail...at end I see 2 smoke trails....1 oil...one coolant + 1 elv gone. Thats from 24-30 20mm shells...meanwhile 1 set of hits from .50 cripples a fighter 2 x .50 x 3-5 shells = 6 to 10 hits?? I think thats unrealistic from range and angle...and certainly they would "walk the plane"....just like my 20mm did...how do you score such damage....unless tiffie "glass tail" really that bad???


added at edit...if i can get it posted you guys can be the judge....all points are valid...I dust dont think this is lag issue...its a porked gunnery model IMO

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: humble ]

[Blue Mako]

Remember that a 2g pull up to fire at 450mph will send you in on a nice smooth curve, not a tight circle.  This is very easy to track from a nice stable platform like a buff.  When you were close then yes, you were virtually unhittable but your approach to the buff is another story.  High speed low g pull maneuvers mean low angular change rates from the buffs perspective which means easy hits...

With this in mind it sounds like he pinged you while you were lining up your shot and the hits only arrived on your FE while you were close to him, as noted above.  With my dial-up connx I often receive pings when I'm out the other side of the buff...

But Buffs in this game are quite easy to kill if you stay out of the cones of fire of the majority of the guns (I'm 13:2 against B17s and Lancs this tour, none of them vulches).  Just setup your shot early from an angle hard to shoot at (and from unfortunately  ) and keep your rate of change relative to the buff high, fire early and break before you are too close.

[Citabria]

humble i suggest the 12 o clock high diving attack keeping your guns trained on the buff with a good high g pull while constantly moving from high front to low rear as the buff flies past you.


it werked very well in real buff attacks and does in ah too.

9 out of 10 times you will kill the buff without getting a scratch because your flight path across his field of fire is very hard to track and you are shooting the whole time.

[pimpjoe]

i recomend what citabria said. try to go for the cockpit if you can. a couple of 20's in the cockpit almost garentee's a pilot kill and a victory over the buff

[Wotan]

citibria is right hi 12 cockpit hits are the best way.

also you wanna manuvre so that the gunner has to keep switching position to track you.

but sometimes it just doesnt matter what  you do and those hi 12 are hard with rudder control in the gunner position.

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]

[StSanta]

Hi 12 oc aren't the best way, IMHO. With hi 12, the gunner only needs to lead you in the vertical, not the horisontal.

Really fast attacks from between 10 to 2 works best for me. Also gives you a nice shot at the wings.

hm, of course, the hi 12 attack could be done like some attacks on m16 I've seen - rapid drop in altitude, level out, fire fire fire, drop in altitude. Works against M16's (read: me in M16's  ) so might work against buffs.

If there's a skilled buff gunner, even a great 10-2 o'clock hi fast attack will be very, very dangerous - especially if you attack the Würger way, by getting really close before opening up, and passing the buff with only inches to spare.

[K West]

Bombers in AH are very, very easy to shoot down after some practice and learning some good approaches.

"unless you get crafty and develop a system based on large amounts of painful experience via repeated trial and error..."

Exactly.

  Westy

[Ripsnort]

FYI: Since buff inception 2 years ago..HTC has gone thru many, many modifications to the buffs in damage and gunnery model...they've tweaked it to perfection in the aspect that they are tough to kill, yet relatively easy to kill if you use good tactics (Sounds historical, don't it?  ).

High angle of attack, use Boom and Zoom tactics..shoot for wings or tails, never attack from dead six o'clock.

[Kieran]

If I can get above a buff and have some speed, the buff is a goner. If I have to come in co-alt, I'm in trouble. This of course is all balanced against how much time I have before the base is leveled. After he drops his bombs I don't care about him anymore, I figure the best punishment is to let him go home. Kinda like letting that chute float in from 20k, listening to the pilot scream "Kill me! KILL MEEEEEE!" on open channel.  

[Wulfmen]

realy Westy???
Think iam dweeb now!!
I think its a difference between the Attacker Planes. I shot ddown a B17 w Niki from 1.3K there is no Problem w this Laserguns, there is no Problem too w Tiffi from this range.
Theres only a Problem w short range weapons.
Under 800ft a good Buffgunner do kill anythink. The Attack angle is not the import role of Win or loose the fight (only six o´clock attacks u loose most of time).

I understand thats the Buff needs more powerfull defence or nobody will fly this Planes much. But i think its a bit to unrealistic. U can hit a Plane from 1.2K deadly.
I loose 2x262 against good Buffgunners, thats not nice  
i was fast and dont attack from the six, but i get two times 1Ping from 1.3K and lost both engines then one sec later at 1.1K i get second ping and lost both wings. After this i was the first Air to ground Missilie. I naver before was so fast from 26K to ground