Lost faith in the FM...or something

[humble]

Just flew a fight that lost me as far as AH is concerned. I realize I'm a pretty average pilot here, but when a Chog can out turn out acc and outclimb a yak...I've lost interest. Now, I will, and did give rudedwg all the credit in the world for fine flying. But what I saw makes no sense to me. You cant pull enough G's with a tight enough arc to almost "flip turn" a plane and retain the E to maintain vertical on an immediate rev.

Anyway it's been a fun ride.


All the best

[RAM]

Yesterday I was saying in country channel that IMO, F4U turns and accelerates way too good (after someone said that he was flying F4U until nikis were turned down).

I got many people that didn't agree, and I got even people that squelched me. And all I said was just that "IMO F4U climbs, accelerates and retais E too well".

I've flown F4U lately, and N1K2 too. My opinion is already given, and backed up by my personal experience on board this planes.

The thing is that noone stops and thinks whats happening with typhoon, too...and what happens with Spitfire IX and V, too...

Then we see other planes (P47  comes to mind, and IMO 109s and 190s too) that bleed E too fast and that don't fit their historic performances in maneouverability and even performance (109's acceleration, to give an example)

The FM needs work, for sure. All above is said from my humble and non-expert point of view. Maybe I've lost the perspective with new FM.

But a F4U outaccelerating a Yak9 (yes, I've seen that, too) is something to wonder about.


Anyway, I hope you are back soon, Humble...things are going to be better as time passes by  

<S!>  

[gatt]

Everytime I see a flip-turn I think: are they realistic? Is it gamin' the game? In other words, has anyone ever seen such flip turns made by a warbird in a WWII VHS or airshow? And plz dont tell me what modern piston engined Sukoi's and Yak's can do.

Thanks,
Baffled-GATT

[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 10-02-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Unless someone is altering their FE's again (ie hacking), I have no idea what you guys are seeing.

The Yak-9U is my main air to air ride this past tour, and the F4U-1C was my main ground attack/vulching ride. So I have alot of experience in them both (check my stats).

And I can definitely tell you that the only flight performance area that the F4U-1C is better or the same as the Yak is in pure level speed (where the two are dead equal), and maybe at the extreme edge of high speed dives in handling.

The Yak accelerates much better than the F4U-1C, outzooms it, out climbs it, rolls the same, and will also out turn it (especially to the right).

RAM, you keep complaining about the acceleration part. Test it, for both the G10 and the -1C. Its real simple and only takes a stopwatch.


------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Westy]

 The only time I see any kind of a flick roll or 90/190 degree instant reversal is through the Ostwind or M16 gunsight. I see aircraft behave like damned butterflies thru those sights. But I've never seen one this through an aircrat gunsight in air-combat. Yet.

 I really wish people would film this stuff. I find it hard to accept that someone witnesses an anomoly and the first thing they do is throw thier hands up and quit. I suspect it's other issues or  things on top of that as the real cause. But it's pretty damn hard for HTC to get something corrected or for the community to help explain what was going on if you people DON'T FILM THE DAMN STUFF.  If I saw something odd occuring and wanted it fixed I'd film more often and ask questions till I was satisfied I received an answer. Then, base d on that answer I'd wonder if I could live with that or then examine continuing my subscription.

 It takes less effort to make a guncam than it does to come in here and leave a "see ya<S>"  type of post.

     -Westy

[Rocket]

I fly the 1D hog, and have flown the 1C for a couple of premade missions, tho I did get a rash, and I can say that I have NEVER been able to accel with a YAK even with wep on.  I just watch em run off into the sunset.  Not sure what is up with what ya are seeing bro but hogs just don't have the umph to run with em.

S!
Rocket

[Ice]

I believe whats happening is this....

I only fly the P-51....Since 1.04, I have had to change a few things in the way I fly it...I'm still making adjustments.

I believe that those of you who have been experiencing unusual performance of other aircraft are probably flying your plane the same way you did in 1.03.

If I rope a dope the same way I did in 1.03, I will most certainly die. The same manuever requires different control input than it used to.

I also had to change my joystick scaling in order to achieve the desired result...If you saw how my stick was scaled in pitch, you would think I was crazy.

Try different changes, one at a time, and see if you cannot dial your favorite ride bak in

Just my experience...hope it helps

I'm Out!

[Citabria]

f4u will out accelerate a yak in a dive from co e and it did in 1.03 too

from levelflight the yak gets to speed a lot quicker than the f4u every time

[Ripsnort]

Hmm, every fight I get into with a Yak, I get my prettythang handed back to me with a Hammar and Sickle tattoo'd on it...

[humble]

Thanx for the various input guys.

This wasn't ment as a "I QUIT" this game is porked post. I'm sure I'll be back, but I'm trying to at least provide some feedback to AH.

This is one I wish I had filmed, and I am open to any/all possible explanations. I just feel I've reached a fundemental cross roads....either everything I know/believe about 1 vs 1 acm's is wrong...or a real issue exists.

I'm not going down the stick stirring,hacked FM path. I saw a range of manuevers that I dont believe can be performed in sequence under laws of physics. You cant pull a series of Hi drag evasives (jinks) followed by an almost flat break turn and seperate from 200 to 1.6 against a 90 degree roll away and pull counter to avoid overshoot.

You cant fly a scissors (two breaks) to a break turn. Again forcing a high break and come out with seperation in the horizontal of 1.8.

You cant turn a plane at a dis of 1.8 in a manner that the wings remain almost parallel to the ground and forces an evasive on a front aspect shot at 800...with plane remaining in front view thruout the turn. This with almnost no change in alt.

After my pull to oblique vertical to avoid possible front aspect shot the hog was observed in a climbing turn. I immediately rolled out of my hi yoyo into a max climb to stall. Observed Hog firing till it "tumbled"...pulled in flaps and rolled over to observe hog recover and pull up...aborted dive with hog showing bout 950 in view on rear left and nursed her into a marginal climbing turn at stall to watch hog fly up to 400 and hammer me.

Anyway, more golf...no AH for a few months.

See ya all next year

[Yeager]

Humble,

Is there any chance that you misjudged the energy state of the opposing plane?

I make that mistake frequently  

Yeager

[Lephturn]

Remember that lag plays a factor here.

He was most certainly closer than he looked due to lag when he was climbing to you.  With lag factored in, he was well within guns range even at 950.

The solution, if you want something to be done about it, is to grab a stopwatch and do some tests in the TA.  I KNOW Pyro will pay attention to information you gather by testing, he has in the past and will in the future.  However, there are too many things that could cause differences in a single 1v1 to let that be the driving factor behind any changes.  Pyro needs hard data.

BTW, how much fuel did you have?  What if the CHog was almost out of gas?  Fuel levels can make a HUGE difference.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[humble]

Good points again,

It's always hard to accurately gauge E state...but, my logic is as follows.

1) speration at 1.8 had me gaining so my E state is equal to plus...yak will out acc hog so I'm fine there

2) Hog executes a tight turn that brings gun solution into play, this can only be done at Hi G low speed. So my E flying level should only increase.

3) at 800 or so I go to a climbing 4G turn...easing to 3g...2.5G as i clear guns.

4) hog goes to a climbing lead turn into my rev, he has to pull comparable G's thru a longer arc to gain a guns solution, so my E state is still positive.

5) As I react and go to climb I lose some E but hog cant convert and tumbles (tail slide to spin) so I'm pos E there.

6) hog requires gentle input and recovers slowly, additionally the plane will stall easily until reasonable airflow over controls is established.

7) I'm in controlled flight at low speed as I begin counter so my fall minimal (but real) we stabalize at 950 with me in low speed climbing turn.

Question...can a hog recovering from a zero E state 1000 ft below a yak recover and climb into yak under those conditions...a spit, nikki 109G10...all possible but a 1c baffles me. Now if the hog climbed like many of us believe it should ....ok...but with the current flight model it just can't.

Had I died on the 1st counter OK...dove into the 4 20mm ok...topped out 400 over his hanging prop OK...but to watch a hog turn like a zeke, climb like a nikki and acc like 109G10....

tis a puzzlement

[humble]

Westy,

Sorry if I tweaked you...for the record this wasnt a rant and I continue to support AH. I'm simply providing reasoning for ME taking a break.

I've provided the specifics to look for other explanations and improve my knowledge base. Seems like others have similiar questions.

I've noticed a lot of old hands going missing, as a business owner I value my old hands and would hate to lose em without a word.

I have no reason to believe this is anything but a FM issue...and simply hope that the powers that be will continue to look at a rising tide of complaints (at least on the RW channels i'm on).

[funked]

Sounds like you overshot low.  You dove and pulled up but with your greater speed you were carving a big arc through the sky.  He dipped his nose after he stalled and got enough airspeed to pull up and blast you.  F4U does not have great sustained turn rate but it has a nice tight turn radius and a low stall speed.

Some other things that might help your understanding:

1.  Just because a plane is closing range on you, it doesn't mean he is flying faster.

2.  If two planes with equal energy pull up vertical to zero IAS, the lower one will close as the higher one nears zero IAS.

3.  The range markers are in yards, not feet.

4.  A climb rate difference of 600 fpm (the approx. difference between a Yak-9U and an F4U-1 at sea level) is only 200 yards per minute or 3-1/3 yards per second.  If you are counting on this difference to pull you out of guns range, make sure your chute is packed properly and your life insurance is paid up.


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-02-2000).]