Author Topic: P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)  (Read 4227 times)

Offline Grits

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2004, 06:52:11 PM »
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Originally posted by Snork
Nothing could be more unbalancing than throwing a point and shoot plane up against one requiring proper skills and tactics in a "furball" arena.


And the MA requires more "skills and tactics" than the CT? Surely you jest? You mean Pork-n-Auger skills? Or Divebombing Lanc skills? Or 50 v 5 capping a base and vulchin? Or how about...on second thought, you are right the MA does require more "skills" than the CT.

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Re: P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2004, 10:08:33 PM »
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It has nothing to do with balance but more of a pilot thing.  Get the P-38 side with guys that know how to fly the Lightning and you'll see those numbers dramatically change in the P-38s favor.

That's how I view this setup.  Seems to me that most of us are probably not real familiar with the P-38 (just a guess, but I'll bet it's pretty close).  Anyone who flies the CT regularly is already familiar with Tony, and many are familiar with Nik.  So this is an opportunity to learn a new plane, one that SHOULD be effective if flown right.

Problem for me, last nite, at least, was that everyone seemed to want to fly allied.  Wonder why?

- oldman (will check it out tonite in a few minutes)

Offline Kweassa

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2004, 10:46:04 PM »
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That's how I view this setup.


 As do I.

 The statistics simply show that many pilots in the P-38L, simply lack in skill.

 Now, I'm not saying that as a personal attack. It's not as if it was unexpected.

 Usually, with multiple choices of all the planes available in a certain timeline, the average grade pilots will generally choose a plane that's easier for them to fight in(not necessarily "survive in", though), rather than go for a challenge in a plane they are not much familiar with.
 
 It brings up an interesting question to the CT players: in many different CT setups, really, how many different planes does one fly?

 I'm willing to bet most of the people who exclusively fly Spitfires, will choose only the Spitfire, all through the ETO setup. Sorry for "pointing out a finger" to the Spitfire, but as much as the Spits are really a masterpiece in hard-boiled dogfighting, naturally it should mean it is generally easier to manage and fly - thus, remaining a main choice for many pilots even though the setup offers different variety of choices.

 So usually, if we take something like a 1944 ETO as an example with all the USAAF planes of the timeline enabled, only about 20% who know how to fly, and actually prefer to fly the P-38, will be flying in them. The rest 80%, usually divides into 50% Spits, and 30% in P-47Ds and P-51B/Ds. The 50% who fly Spits, also fly Spits in Mediterranean, Fight over the Channel, Tunisia.

 Now, that's not a problem with only the Allied pilots. Axis pilots are the same - most will prefer to fly the Bf109 rather than the Fw190, in German Axis setups.

 But generally, as the Axis planes are all limited in capabilities for "easy action", the problem of people lacking knowledge of a certain specific plane is less pronounced.

 To the average level Axis pilot, he won't be able to really "dogfight" the Allied planes be it he is in the Bf109 or the Fw190. Thus, average Axis pilots are ready to try different planes without much disparity in their scores.

 Besides, there's only two major fighter plane types in the German plane set in the first place. Only about three major types in Japanese plane set.

 Thus, the knowledge and experience of different types of planes offered, is a bit higherfor the Axis pilot than average skilled Allied pilot. The Axis pilots can fly any plane in the Axis setup with simular results(although, they may not be neccesarily "skilled" in general), while the average Allied pilots show a distinct disparity in results according to the plane they fly.

 Average grade pilots accustomed to the Spit generally don't have a clue on how to fight in the P-38. They'd probably rather fly a P-51D, which can at least disengage at will, if they are denied Spitfires. Average skilled Axis pilots, on the other hand, can't do much in both Bf109 or the Fw190 - they choose the only way they know how they can survive, or at least, go down with at least a single kill: they stick to combat principles of alt and speed(although they may not no much of in utilizing it fully). In the Japanese Axis, the A6M5 and the N1K2 have pretty much simular tactics when squaring off against faster US fighters, and only those who are confident in the Ki-61, would use them.

 In effect, what we have is a situation something like, a group of RAF Spit squadron pilots suddenly receiving P-38s to fight in, which they never flew before, as compared to a group of Japanese squadron pilots who are flying a plane which is generally simular in overall quality, with the planes they used to fly.

 
 That is one of the reasons why I like limited plane choices of single plane type per country. It forces the player to try what they are not familiar with. Also, simulates a bit of the war-time reality, in that the pilots did not have choices as to what to fly - they fight with what they were given with. That's part of the fun in CT - if a bit of historicity limites your planes, you learn to fly with what you were given with.

 Ofcourse, people who feel as if they are oppressed, and can't stand to play the game for 5 minutes when their preferred selection is limited, will hate such setups. But then again, generally they hate all the setups that don't feature any plane they can play with easily.

 
 This setup would have been much more interesting without the N1K2-J. I'm willing to bet that even if without the N1K2-J, the scores will turn out pretty much as it is now.


ps) I'm also willing to bet if the "blue planes" are added, 80% of the Allied pilots whill once again, shift to the Hellcat, which is generally easier to maneuver with, than the P-38L. So we're probably gonna get a setup with the name of "George vs. the Lightning", where nobody flies the Lightning but the couple of dedicated P-38 pilots. And people will soon begin to wonder "where are the 'lightnings' anyway?"
« Last Edit: February 28, 2004, 10:52:09 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Fauxbra

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2004, 11:31:03 PM »
i made one of my rare(as of late) entrancnes into the CT on friday night and was suprised to see the Allies furballing with the NIKI. I was sure i was gonna be in for a long night of Booming and Zooming but instead the L's were mixing it up and losing badly. It could be worse though....they could take away the P-38 and give the Allies the 202 and the 109E-4

Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2004, 11:45:00 PM »
I see a lot of you axis pilots stating that if the P-38 was flown properly that the stats would be different. Well, duh, of corse but what would soon follow would be the same axis pilot crying that all we do is.......what the proper P-38 pilot does to kill AND stay ALIVE!

Offline Grits

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2004, 01:20:22 AM »
Too summarize, what Kweassa is saying is, this is much to do about nothing and you Allied chumps complaining about the P-38 being outclassed are skilless dweebs. :D

(grinnin, duckin, runnin!)

Offline Ack-Ack

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2004, 01:58:45 AM »
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Originally posted by Slash27
AKAK, you gonna spend some time with us this week?:D



Yep, been took a couple of sorties in there last night, smacking any N1K2 or Ki-61 that was foolish enough to engage.  



ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Ack-Ack

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2004, 02:02:47 AM »
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Originally posted by Eagler
what ack ack said  - sort of

you get good p38 pilots winging together and the japs will get their arses handed to them

of course it'd be 99.9% b&z so it would be about as exciting as watching paint dry but the P38 jocks would own the arena

 




99.99% of the BnZers would probably be the ones what really don't know how to use the P-38 to its fullest.  A P-38 can hold it's own against in a turn fight against the N1K2 provided the P-38 pilot keeps the fight above 300mph or below 150mph (stall fighting) and a P-38 can easily out turn a Ki-61.  Stuff like that you wouldn't expect the casual P-38 pilot to know, so that's why the majority BnZ in it.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Ack-Ack

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2004, 02:05:36 AM »
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Originally posted by Grits
And the MA requires more "skills and tactics" than the CT? Surely you jest? You mean Pork-n-Auger skills? Or Divebombing Lanc skills? Or 50 v 5 capping a base and vulchin? Or how about...on second thought, you are right the MA does require more "skills" than the CT.



To say the CT requires "more skill" than the MA, is just sheer folly, just like saying the MA takes "more skill" to survive in than the CT.  If you're a good pilot, you'll be successful in either arena and if you suck, you'll suck in them both.  Both require the same amount of "skill" to be successful.  To think otherwise, is just...well, dweebish.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Re: Re: P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2004, 02:06:52 AM »
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Originally posted by Oldman731


Problem for me, last nite, at least, was that everyone seemed to want to fly allied.  Wonder why?

- oldman (will check it out tonite in a few minutes)


Because the P-38 r0xx0r! and the N1K2/Ki-61 suxx0r!


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Ack-Ack

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #25 on: February 29, 2004, 02:12:18 AM »
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
I see a lot of you axis pilots stating that if the P-38 was flown properly that the stats would be different. Well, duh, of corse but what would soon follow would be the same axis pilot crying that all we do is.......what the proper P-38 pilot does to kill AND stay ALIVE!



I can hardly be called an Axis pilot since the only fighter I fly is the P-38L but I stand behind my original post and totally agree with Kweassa's.  There's more to flying the P-38 than just knowing how to BnZ in it.  There's stuff like that you need to know that will let you out turn a Ki-61 or a N1K2 in a stall fight.  Stuff like that the casual P-38 pilot won't know how to do.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Grits

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #26 on: February 29, 2004, 02:16:46 AM »
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Both require the same amount of "skill" to be successful.  To think otherwise, is just...well, dweebish.


I agree, which is why I said what I said. I took the "Furball Arena" and "a plane that requires proper skills and tactics" comments as a suggestion that folks in the MA had the skills and tactics and the CT folks dont, which is silly.

Offline Kweassa

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2004, 02:24:31 AM »
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see a lot of you axis pilots stating that if the P-38 was flown properly that the stats would be different. Well, duh, of course but what would soon follow would be the same axis pilot crying that all we do is.......what the proper P-38 pilot does to kill AND stay ALIVE!


 Apparently, Levi and Nath flew for the Allies today, and they quite evidently showed what can be done if P-38 pilots fly according to organized, but aggressive tactics.

 Was busy getting my arse handed to me time after time.
 
 Granted, both Leviathan and Nath are exceptional pilots and not a good example of the norm, but usually good pilots bring a sort of "synergy" effect, which boosts the morale of average pilots and enable them to show their potential.

 I've seen a lot of such potential from the lesser skilled P-38L pilots today - they came with alt advantage, but not with something like 5000~6000ft. They came in higher as needed, was organized, watched after each other's tail in a very responsive and prompt manner, and kept forcing the our N1Ks and Ki-61s down low. Promptly retreating back when odds weren't good, but not running straight to base. Luring few pilots into nicely set traps, and showing a classic example of "divid et imperi"

 It seems like the P-38L pilots today, even the average ones, apparently knew a different way of "doing what they have to do to kill and stay alive", than yours.

Offline _Schadenfreude_

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #28 on: February 29, 2004, 02:34:08 AM »
2nd time up in a P38 for me - got three Niki kills and landed them - stayed fast and high and fought on my terms, engage, kill or miss, disengage and reposition.

Then tried the Niki - was caught flopping around at zero feet trying to look four ways at once - got two kills - died each time in four runs....blech

Offline Oldman731

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P-38L vs N1K2-J for one day (STATS)
« Reply #29 on: February 29, 2004, 08:36:53 AM »
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Levi and Nath flew for the Allies today, and they quite evidently showed what can be done if P-38 pilots fly according to organized, but aggressive tactics.  

Yes, indeed, they most certainly did.

Paying close attention to how my posterior was being perforated, I said to myself, "heck with the numbers, I want to try one of those funny-looking airplanes that seem to be really good energy fighters."

No kills yet, but seems to me that this P-38 is a pretty clear example of Bullethead's paradigm of an energy fighter.  Even I can see the potential.  Will continue to work on it, unless numbers get way out of whack.

- oldman