Cop Killer Bullets?

[lazs2]

toad is correct... most hunting and defense loads are of the "controled expansion" type they are not meant to fragment but to simply expand If, after penetrating your vest... the ought six 180 grain bullet were expanded to 3/4" or so from it's originall .308 diameter yet retained even a paltry 600 or 800 ft/lbs of energy... it would be a 3/4" inch slug penetrating your fragile body at about twice the energy of a .45 slug.

some bullets are meant to fragment but that is a bad idea since any barrier, even heavy clothing tends to make them useless... latest type rounds will penetrate steel but fragment when they no longer have entered something soft.

lazs

[FUNKED1]

Many of the friends of the Second Amendment in Congress and the Reagan White House quietly insisted that something be done to get rid of the controversy.

I suggest that the controversy be dispersed by televised live fire testing on Kennedy.

[Wolfala]

Ya know, you gotta love a guy who thinks the Bureau for Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is a convenience store.

[Wolf14]

All this talk about "Cop-Killer" bullets bring to mind about an old man who had an intresting way of correcting a few fellas at the gun range.


As I was paying my fees and buying a few targets two guys walk in and ask about ammo that can penatrate bullet proof vests.

Old man Says "I bet you guys want some of them Cop-Killer bullets huh?"

Two guys respond "uh yeah, those are like the only things that will go through a vest right?"

Old man looks at them for a minute, cracks half a smile, and says "You guys dont got much sense do ya? If I had a handgun round that would go through a vest I wouldnt sell them to ya. Cops are out there doing a mighty dangerous job. I'd hate to think I contributed to ones death by knowingly selling ammo that could pass through their vests. Specialy when they come in asking for it"

One of the two guys tried to change what he said by telling the old man that they were not looking to shoot cops they wanted to have the ammo for home defense in the event a would be burglar broke into their homes with a vest. They just wanted to make sure they killed him before ho could harm them or their families.

At this statement it was all the oldman could do to keep from laughing. I myself was about to bust a gut  but held my compsure.

The old man looked at these two guys again and said " Let me explain this in terms I hope you can understand. You dont need a bullet to go through a vest to bring someone down who is wearing one. For one thing when a bullet is fired it leaves the gun with alot of energy behind the bullet. The bigger the bullet the more energy behind it and the more it transfer when it hits the vest. It wont go through but the person wearing the vest is going to know they been hit. That energy is going to transfer and spread and anything that is going to give from the transfer is going to give and break or colapse. If its a small caliber bullet it wont have the same effect but then again a vest doesnt cover all parts of the body and you did say you wanted to stop somebody wearing one didnt ya? Of course if you still dont understand what I'm talking about lets go out back. I have a piece of steel you can hold to your chest. I'll hit ya with a sledge hammer I have and then I'll call an ambulance for yeah cause I can pretty much bet you aint gonna get up and do jumping jacks."

At that point I decided I had heard enough. Told the person I didnt want to shoot today after all. Got in my car and left. Of course on the way home I did have to stop a few times to wipe my eyes and catch my breath from laughing so hard. I still laugh thinking about it from time to time like now.

I dont really believe in any form of gun control or ammo control other than in the form of education. In those guys cases they need at least a few months and parental supervision.

[Grizzly]

As I remember, this cop killer hangun bullet stuff started about 25 years ago. I worked for the state back then and verified this through the highway patrol... IT'S NOT TRUE.

There were actually two types.

One a bullet with a scored hollow point tip. I believe I have some called Black Tallon. These are actually an old concept called a dumdum, which had an X score on the tip with a knife. The bullet would separate on the score lines and the fragments spread out. These cause damage but would actually be stopped more affectively by a bullet proof vest.

The actual cop killer was a bullet designed by some guy who said he was going to start marketing them. This was the teflon bullet. His claims that it would penetrate a bullet proof vest were proved bogus. It was a hoax and the guy never brought them to market.

However false, it seems the cries to outlaw these evil cop killer bullets has been heard every legislative session since. I don't know if Ted Kennedy is still trying to outlaw them. But some, like Kennedy, will use every opportunity to further restrict fire arms. And if their reasoning is false, it doesn't matter. They will willingly lie, cheat and use every trick in the book to outlaw guns. I think it's because they can't make sheep out of us if we're armed.

If a bullet from a high powered rifle couldn't penetrate a bullet proof vest, it would probably push the vest through the person wearing it.

grizzly

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Dune's article
An important new protection in the compromise bill required that "armor-piercing ammunition" be so labeled. This prevented people from being prosecuted for the unwitting sale of the newly restricted ammunition. For example, some surplus ammunition imported from Czechoslovakia contained a solid core, rather than a lead core, because there had been a lead shortage in the Czechoslovakia when the ammunition was manufactured.

How old is this article? It mentions "Czechoslovakia", but that country was split up into two countries - Slovakia, and the Czech Republic - on 1 January 1993, suggesting that the article is 11 years old. However, it mentions Clinton's actions of 1995.

Why would Ted Kennedy want "cop killer" bullets banned? Just asking.

[Steve]

Sadly, all my guns were stolen the day they will be listed as illegal.  An odd, unhappy coincidence.  They  got all my ammo too.

[lazs2]

allmost all of the current ex soviet block ammo being manufactured uses both steel cases and steel jakets..  the jackets are a steel alloy and the hollowpoints have serations to the base of the hollowpoint.  the slug will expand that far and no farther.    Millions of these rounds are made in Russia every year.  They will actually spark hitting a metal backstop and are not allowed at some indoor ranges.

lazs

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by lazs2
Using cast lead bullets of 250 grains at 1200 fps..my 44 mag will penetrate allmost all soft  body armor.  

most hunting rifles use slugs in the 100-200 grain range at velocities of 2000 to 4000 fps.

lazs

Hey, pump those 44 magnum loads up. My favorites are a Sierra 180 grain JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) clocking at 1800+ FPS, a 240 grain cast bullet at about 1500 FPS, and a 300 grain cast bullet at about 1300 FPS. The gun is a Dan Wesson with a 6" barrel and the barrel gap set at 0.002".

Off hand, I can't remember a hunting rifle using a 100 grain bullet exceeding 4000 FPS. But my old Model 70 220 Swift would push a 55 grain bullet to 4000 FPS. My current Model 770 300 Winchester Magnum with a Shilen barrel will send a 168 Sierra HPBT Match King screaming along at around 3300 FPS.

[Curval]

Originally posted by Steve
Sadly, all my guns were stolen the day they will be listed as illegal.  An odd, unhappy coincidence.  They  got all my ammo too.

Hmmm...have a scooter stolen and mention it here = never ending comments and jibes.

Have all your guns and ammo stolen = no comment.

(of course if Steve is just "saying" they were all stolen, when in fact he still has all of them and their ammunition and announcing it in a round-about way on an internet BBS = priceless).

[Pongo]

Originally posted by FUNKED1
I suggest that the controversy be dispersed by televised live fire testing on Kennedy.

you missed the word "another"

[Steve]

Curval, you seem to have checked your sense of humor at the door.  Please return to the lobby and pick it up, or else once you get there, just keep on walking.

[lazs2]

cvh... I also have a dan wesson... it is not as heavy duty as my redhawk.  

I don't know what your load is but if you can get a 250 grain keith to go much more than 1200 fps out of a 4" barrel then you are pretty much overloaded...  no real need anyway.    Learned a long time ago that those loads are mostly just gun wreckers and don't do anything that 100 fps less won't do.

A couple of the Weatherby 100 grain loads get close to 4,000 fps.  but really.. you need less than 100 grains to realisticly get in  the 4,000 range...

lazs

[Curval]

Originally posted by Steve
Curval, you seem to have checked your sense of humor at the door.  Please return to the lobby and pick it up, or else once you get there, just keep on walking.

ahh...it was supposed to be funny.

Har har <- For the record.

[TPIguy]

Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." 42,43 Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Its a long article, but worth the read. One could come to the conclusion from reading it that; any bullet without sufficent power to penetrate a vest would be insuffencient for self defense.

IE in lower power handguns you'd be better off w/ FMJ bullets than hollowpoints. Even then they would not stop a determined attacker. In higher power guns like a .357, 41, 44 etc...  penetration would be suffcient to use JSP or JHP bullets.

IF bullets capable of penetrating police vests are outlawed, the general public would be less able to defend themselves with handguns.