Here's why there's a USS Ronald Reagan

[Saurdaukar]

You cant fool me, I played Command and Conquer.  The Soviets travel through time and asassinate world leaders.  Bad news.

[Boroda]

Miko, I am not a specialist, but it seems to me that it's possible to create dangerous situations by simply tampering the control readings like pressure, temperature, flow speed etc.

IIRC - FSB have proven the fact of intentional sabotage via software bug (закладка) there.

I like your sentences about Soviet polylogism, but cybernetics was OK again by the late-50s. All great Soviet calculating machines were designed in the 60s. BECM-6 (БЭСМ-6) was one of the world's best designs for 1966. And after having a successfull line of "supercomputers" they decided to abandon that program in favour of IBM/360 compatible clones... In the 70s the only original designs were military Elbrus series, too expencive and complicated for "commercial" use. They were ahead of time, but the mainstream machines were unreliable EC, IBM clones. I wonder why it happened.

[lazs2]

boroda.. we have plenty of big pistols here but the mak is inspired.  

I think the world got lucky that the U.S. is in the drivers seat.   All governments are evil but for a superpower.... the U.S. is about the least evil anyone could hope for.   Somebody has to be the big dog... good thing this is a fairly good natured big dog on the porch.

lazs

[Boroda]

Originally posted by lazs2
boroda.. we have plenty of big pistols here but the mak is inspired.  

It's funny Here most of the officers say it's usefull only to crack nuts and open beer.

My Father was a prize shooter (still holds one record of Leningrad Military District since 60s). They had an excersise of shooting from their regular weapon, and he always have chosen APS because Makarov is inaccurate and too light (but not as inaccurate as TT).

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg22-e.htm

Originally posted by lazs2

I think the world got lucky that the U.S. is in the drivers seat.   All governments are evil but for a superpower.... the U.S. is about the least evil anyone could hope for.   Somebody has to be the big dog... good thing this is a fairly good natured big dog on the porch.

I don't think that a superpower acting like a mean kid is a good thing for the world. You are dangerous because you are not sane. Sorry.

You'll pass a superpower exam when you'll understand that your values are not absolute, and that it's impossible to make everyone live according to your distorted understanding of life. So far you fail.

In this field you can learn from Russian Empire. It lived in peace with all kind of citizens, regardless to national/religious/cultural differences. We literally were a bridge between cultures.

[miko2d]

Boroda: Miko, I am not a specialist, but it seems to me that it's possible to create dangerous situations by simply tampering the control readings like pressure, temperature, flow speed etc.

 Sure. You can make a component fail or malfuction - which is accounted for in design. But that is a long way from making a pipe burst. For that you need a carefully coordinated malfunction of several components from unrelated systems. Even then, why would it explode rather than just spill?
 There were - and are - lakes of oil spilled in Siberia from cracks in the pipelines. A lightning strike or a dropped cigarette could have set up an explosion.
 Soviet hardware was always notoriously unreliable and workers unsafe. There is no need to invent some kind of smart CIA operation to explain one of many accidents that happen there every year.

IIRC - FSB have proven the fact of intentional sabotage via software bug (закладка) there.

 Not saying that they would not arrange for a faulty component to fall into soviet hands. Just that there was no single component that controlled the pumping station.

I like your sentences about Soviet polylogism, but cybernetics was OK again by the late-50s. ... They were ahead of time, but the mainstream machines were unreliable EC, IBM clones. I wonder why it happened.

 Major blunders of soviet politically-directed science happened after that time - the corn, the plowing of Kasakhstan, the river projects, etc.
 The restriction on jews entrance in science and strategic industries, college quotas - that was a major contribution.

 The reliability was always the issue with everything soviet-made, due to un-motivated workforce and maganement. When you live not by profit from willing customer but by executing a plan on the number of shipped items, what incentive is there to improve quality?

 miko

[lazs2]

boroda... the mak can shoot 4 inch groups easily from 25 yards and is as powerful as is possible in a blow back gun... The inspired part is that unlike a Walther (which it borrows heavily from) it is simple and robust and has only 27 parts.   Soviet revolvers were allways crap except in the 1800's when they used Smith and Wesson hand ejectors.   I would love to try any Soviet weapon but any semi auto pistol would have a long way to go to beat western standards.

I am pragmatic about superpowers.   No superpower has shown itself to be benevolent.   british and Soviets have shown that they have no compunction in removing personal fr4eedom and enslaving their conquests.  

The U.S. is meddlesome but... the end result is allways more personal freedom for the majority of the populace not less.   I fear my government but I fear yours a lot more.

lazs

[LePaul]

LOL...Baroda...the last hard line Communist around.  

You amuse me.  Do you think the world is still flat?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by lazs2
boroda... the mak can shoot 4 inch groups easily from 25 yards and is as powerful as is possible in a blow back gun... The inspired part is that unlike a Walther (which it borrows heavily from) it is simple and robust and has only 27 parts.   Soviet revolvers were allways crap except in the 1800's when they used Smith and Wesson hand ejectors.   I would love to try any Soviet weapon but any semi auto pistol would have a long way to go to beat western standards.

Hehe, you are right, APS was a great accurate thing compared to other Soviet pistols.

As for revolvers - I doubt there are any Russian S&W left, they were out of production in 1895, when Nagant was adopted. Nagant is believed to be the most precise hand gun here. Father said he had a special match Nagant with semi-anatomic grip and a piece of a machine-gun barrel instead of it's native one. He prefered it to Czech 38 Special revolvers that were probably the only type of foreign sporting handguns availible to officers in 50s-60s.

BTW, I never saw special match ammunition for Makarov/Stechkin, but there were several types made for Nagant, with non-coated lead bullets, smaller charge and shorter cartridge.

Edit: a link to Nagant revolver:

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg102-e.htm

Originally posted by lazs2

I am pragmatic about superpowers.   No superpower has shown itself to be benevolent.   british and Soviets have shown that they have no compunction in removing personal fr4eedom and enslaving their conquests.  

The U.S. is meddlesome but... the end result is allways more personal freedom for the majority of the populace not less.   I fear my government but I fear yours a lot more.

It's what you are told Just as what we were told about Soviet assistance to Third World, Soviet soldiers building schools and planting trees in Afghanistan (exactly like what I saw in American news from Iraq), etc.

You have to understand that 90% of people don't give a damn about personal freedom. What ruined USSR was a desire to have bright-coloured toys, Japanese TVs and Coca-Cola. We have it all now, but we don't have solid-built Soviet goods, Soviet system of education, healthcare, etc. We sold it all for chewing-gum. Yes, I don't have to attend stupid Comsomol/Party meetings now, and can go abroad, but now I feed three times as much bloodsuckers as in Soviet times, and noone will let me enter US or UK, regardless to the fact that I am free to leave my country.

So - I think I'll trade back the Comsomol meetings for healthcare and Coca-Cola for "Baikal" soda (which is still better anyway, but more expensive now).

Freedom to do what? To shout "Putin is an idiot" in the street? You need to be an idiot yourself to do it. The only thing left is rock music, but now we live in the age of MTV and finding good music is a bigger problem then in Soviet times.

I'll trade this so-called "freedom" for free professional healthcare.

And believe me, 95% even of you guys here on this BBS will never notice ant difference between your life and Soviet Union, only you'll get many things better and cheaper.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by LePaul
LOL...Baroda...the last hard line Communist around.  

You amuse me.  Do you think the world is still flat?

Why do you think I am a Communist?

Do you have anything to say against my arguments? Noone here said anything about Western agressive plans against my country. Just try to look at it from a country that was invaded from the West twice in last 100 years and so many times in last 1000 years.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by miko2d
Major blunders of soviet politically-directed science happened after that time - the corn, the plowing of Kasakhstan, the river projects, etc.
 The restriction on jews entrance in science and strategic industries, college quotas - that was a major contribution.

Corn and Tselina are mid-late 50s. I am speaking about a decision made in late-60s.

Restriction of Jews? Miko, I work in an Academic institute. Don't repeat slogans, please "Restriction" meant that science wasn't 100% Jewish.

Заика: Ммменння вччера в ддикторы на ррадио не вввзяли. Еееврей ппотомучччто.

Originally posted by miko2d

 The reliability was always the issue with everything soviet-made, due to un-motivated workforce and maganement. When you live not by profit from willing customer but by executing a plan on the number of shipped items, what incentive is there to improve quality?

One word: Kalashnikov

Miko, last BESM machines were disassembled here in 1990-91, and they were much more reliable then IBM clones.

And I think you know that there are different kinds of motivation for "workforce and maganement".

[2Slow]

"Why would american government support USSR with trade in food and strategic materials at the same time it was supposedely trying to hurt them. "


The Patton principle.  Hold them by the nose, kick them in the pants.

By supporting with food and other essentials it quelled the need for acquiring the materials by conquest.

[miko2d]

Boroda: Corn and Tselina are mid-late 50s. I am speaking about a decision made in late-60s.

 Same people were in power, same system.

Restriction of Jews? Miko, I work in an Academic institute. Don't repeat slogans, please "Restriction" meant that science wasn't 100% Jewish.

 Whatever. Why are you switching the subject anyway? You did not ask why soveit science was deficient - it was not. You asked why they did not have good products.
 What use having jews in  science if they were barred from management? In fact there probably were more jews in science because there was not much chance for them to advance in "business" - much of which was security-related, required party membership, etc.

Miko, last BESM machines were disassembled here in 1990-91, and they were much more reliable then IBM clones.

 IBM clones made by soviets. No wonder. The more advanced technology became with time, the less capable was soviet manufcturing in reproducing it with the required quality.
 You can make the 1950 computer with thicker glass on the bulbs, higher-gauge wires, more power consumption and relays that weight pound each and so on. But you cannot compensate for a dirty microchip production by throwing extra pound of metal for reinforcement.

And I think you know that there are different kinds of motivation for "workforce and maganement".

 Which was not present anymore after Stalin's death  and did not work that well befor it.

 miko

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Boroda
Why do you think I am a Communist?
 

Have you seen your own avatar lately?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Have you seen your own avatar lately?

All Austrians are Communists? They have Hamer and a Sickle on their state emblem.

It's an international symbol of Labour, JFYI.

I am more and more amazed of the state of affairs in Swedish judicial system

A joke for Miko:

Американский лётчик вылезает из-под обломков сбитого Ф-117, и видит рядом на поле югославского крестьянина с сохой:

-Серб?

-Серп, серп, скажи спасибо что молотом не переебали!

[Boroda]

Originally posted by miko2d

 Same people were in power, same system.

You are not quite right. Comparing Stalin's era (banning or cynernetics and genetics) with Mikita's slapstick (corn and Tselina) and Brezhnev's "stagnation" is very much wrong. Abandoning native computer designs was a typical desision of Brezhnev's times...

Originally posted by miko2d
Whatever. Why are you switching the subject anyway? You did not ask why soveit science was deficient - it was not. You asked why they did not have good products.
 What use having jews in  science if they were barred from management? In fact there probably were more jews in science because there was not much chance for them to advance in "business" - much of which was security-related, required party membership, etc.

No, its You who switch subjects

What does nationality have to do with quality of production? In Stalin's times we had high percentage of Jews in "top management", maybe you'll say that's why Stalin's socialism was so effective? I bet it's wrong.

In times of "stagnation" Jews worked im warmer places then factory directors, like foreign trade. Miko, I studied in a school where I was almost a proletarian kid, a son of a colonel, doctor of science, and all that rich golden kids were Jewish.

Again you repeat strange myths of "Soviet state antisemitism", that did actually more harm to Jews themselves.

Originally posted by miko2d

 IBM clones made by soviets. No wonder. The more advanced technology became with time, the less capable was soviet manufcturing in reproducing it with the required quality.
 You can make the 1950 computer with thicker glass on the bulbs, higher-gauge wires, more power consumption and relays that weight pound each and so on. But you cannot compensate for a dirty microchip production by throwing extra pound of metal for reinforcement.

Strange, why BESM designed on the same elementary base as IBM/360 was more reliable? I'll say it was alien technology, impossible to copy in our conditions. Our industry surely was technologically several years behind West, but ahead of West in design.

Originally posted by miko2d

And I think you know that there are different kinds of motivation for "workforce and maganement".

 Which was not present anymore after Stalin's death  and did not work that well befor it.

You will laugh, but in Stalin's times labour was highly motivated materialy. It's Mikita who ruined it all.

Miko, your ideas are sometimes funny. You try to show that Soviets were not-rational according to Western standards. The problem is that they were rational according to our domestic conditions. It's hard to understand, but it's true.