Author Topic: Overshoot move question (Read 1222 times)

JoeBWan17 · « **on:** March 05, 2004, 08:40:57 AM »

I posted the following question to my squads message board concerning the recent P38 vs. N1k matchup in the CT, but the question itself is probably applicable to many plane matchups:

I've seen this move performed against me several times lately, and I haven't quite figured out what they are doing just yet. A quick description is below, followed by my guess at what is going on:

(Me in a 38, enemy in N1k) As I close on their six, at around D600 they start a hard climb up and to the right. I'm coming in slightly faster so it takes me a little bit longer to adjust and get guns back on target. As I'm doing this the plane starts to roll inverted and goes back to the left. At this point I usually chop throttle and continue to track in order to prevent overshoot. However now they are higher than me and I've lost E. If I don't chop throttle I overshoot right away, and now they are on my six with a pretty good shot. Occasionally (when I chop throttle) I'll get one decent shot on them before wallowing around and getting minced. Once I get slower there is no recovery due to the better acceleration of the N1k.

My guess is that after the hard climb up and to the right they doing some kind of barrel roll back to the left and I'm not following it. I've had this done to me by Shane, BigMax, Levi, and Octavius and it looks almost the same every time.

Virage · « **Reply #1 on:** March 05, 2004, 09:03:33 AM »

you are right, they are barrel rolling you.

But you can recognise it now which is the first step.

3 ways to counter:

get slow (chop throttle/full rudder) so you stay behind them during the roll and don't blow thru. Hard to do if your relative speeds are great. Can also lead to disaster if you don't nail them and it turns into a turn fight. but it does work if you can get slow enough to stay behind them.

stay fast and above them. take the quick snapshot attempt, but don't push a bad gun solution. make sure u don't get suckered lower then them. Take quick shot, go wings level and shallow extend/ climb. don't go verticle right away as you need some seperation to get away from niki lasers.

mirror them for a rope. feint attack then climb/ climb spiral. staying above them you don't go for the shot but start a climb above them when they begin the roll. many times they will point their nose at you for too long and allow you to rope them or at least force them to get slow and dive out below you.

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #2 on:** March 05, 2004, 09:53:28 AM »

JoeBWan, here is a link to a film I made several months back that you might find useful. I perform this move a number of times against higher, faster opponents. Use the Aces High film viewer to hop into the enemy planes to see if you recognize the maneuver, then hop into my plane and you'll see the timing, visualization, and execution of it from within the cockpit.

This won't necessarily help you counter the move, but if you can perform it properly you're much closer to successfully recognizing and defeating it.

Enjoy!

-- Todd/Leviathn

Xjazz · « **Reply #3 on:** March 05, 2004, 10:09:53 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
JoeBWan, here is a link to a film I made several months back that you might find useful. I perform this move a number of times against higher, faster opponents. Use the Aces High film viewer to hop into the enemy planes to see if you recognize the maneuver, then hop into my plane and you'll see the timing, visualization, and execution of it from within the cockpit.

This won't necessarily help you counter the move, but if you can perform it properly you're much closer to successfully recognizing and defeating it.

Enjoy!

-- Todd/Leviathn

Which map is used?

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2004, 10:15:06 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Xjazz
Which map is used?

I believe it's the Trinity map.

-- Todd/Leviathn

JoeBWan17 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2004, 10:28:29 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
JoeBWan, here is a link to a film I made several months back that you might find useful. I perform this move a number of times against higher, faster opponents. Use the Aces High film viewer to hop into the enemy planes to see if you recognize the maneuver, then hop into my plane and you'll see the timing, visualization, and execution of it from within the cockpit.

This won't necessarily help you counter the move, but if you can perform it properly you're much closer to successfully recognizing and defeating it.

Enjoy!

-- Todd/Leviathn

Thanks a lot! I'll check that out first thing when I get home. Being able to see it through your eyes will give me a much better idea of how to perform it myself.

Also wanted to say thanks to Virage for idea on how to counter. I'll have to try those out next time I think I see this coming. Too bad that P38 vs. N1k matchup is ending because I really enjoyed it. No lack of N1ks in the MA though.

humble · « **Reply #6 on:** March 05, 2004, 10:51:57 AM »

Couple of things to consider...

1) 38 is a bear to fly...it's hard to get the most out of the plane...if your "wallowing" at low speed you probably arent using enough flaps & rudder. However it's really a vertical E fighter...especially against a plane like the Nikki.

2) The Nikki is still a porked FM (regardless of what anyone else says) with regard to E retention...he'll come out of that barrel roll with almost no E loss.

3) you don't give any preamble...so I have no clue about relative E state...if the planes are close to Co-e then the barrel roll is offensive...the nikki can deny you the shot and create a shot window...you need to roll AWAY from him immediatly and create seperation...any move to chop or follow the nikki will give you one snap shot then your on the defensive for good. I'd roll 45 degrees or so left and into a gentle dive...you should be able to rope the nikki from there

Now if your clearly positive E then you roll slightly left and go vertical...you want to create some seperation to minimize the snap shot for the nikki...but then transition to a spiral climb over him.

Basically the moment that you "go angles" with the nikki he's drawn you into a fight you wont win unless your a 38 ace and he's a nikki dweeb...the guys you mentioned fly everything well so you were dead the moment you came off the gas.

gofaster · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2004, 11:43:26 AM »

Just fly the FW190A8 and when you see them roll into a barrell roll, just hit WEP and fly away.

JoeBWan17 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2004, 12:02:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
Couple of things to consider...

1) 38 is a bear to fly...it's hard to get the most out of the plane...if your "wallowing" at low speed you probably arent using enough flaps & rudder. However it's really a vertical E fighter...especially against a plane like the Nikki.

2) The Nikki is still a porked FM (regardless of what anyone else says) with regard to E retention...he'll come out of that barrel roll with almost no E loss.

3) you don't give any preamble...so I have no clue about relative E state...if the planes are close to Co-e then the barrel roll is offensive...the nikki can deny you the shot and create a shot window...you need to roll AWAY from him immediatly and create seperation...any move to chop or follow the nikki will give you one snap shot then your on the defensive for good. I'd roll 45 degrees or so left and into a gentle dive...you should be able to rope the nikki from there

Now if your clearly positive E then you roll slightly left and go vertical...you want to create some seperation to minimize the snap shot for the nikki...but then transition to a spiral climb over him.

Basically the moment that you "go angles" with the nikki he's drawn you into a fight you wont win unless your a 38 ace and he's a nikki dweeb...the guys you mentioned fly everything well so you were dead the moment you came off the gas.

Firt off, thanks for your comments!

You are right I didn't give much of a preamble, only that I was on their six and closing. Usually I was co-alt and just a tad faster, which probably falls into your "virtually co-e" category.

Quite honestly with all the guys I listed I was probably dead no matter what I did. They are all such drastically better pilots. I just wanteded to better understand what they did, how I could use it myself, and what I should be trying to counter it. I think I have a much better feel for that now, and can't wait to view those films from Levi.

Say the same situation happened, but my opponent was in a P51 instead of a N1K. Do the same principles apply, or should I attempt to follow since they arn't as maneuverable a plane.?

humble · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2004, 12:51:38 PM »

There is no set answer...but as a general rule you want to maximize your advantage...P-38 vs Pony is a tough match up...the pony can hang with the 38 fairly well...a good 38 driver will fly in the vertical vs pony...The slower the fight the better the 38 will do in an angles fight....so if your faster than the pony you've got to be careful...but I'd chop and go to 1 or 2 notches of flaps...stay behind him and use my 4 x 50's to keep him turning. The pony can be a tough nut since not many guys T&B it well. It's actually an awful good knife fighter if flown right...if you have enough E you want to get over him and stomp on his head a few times...drive him down to the dirt...

Any plane other than a nikki (and yak-u) the 38 has an advantage to exploit...the nikki was an outstanding plane and the AH version is seriously juiced...if your going to fly the 38 you'll want to focus on vertical E fighting (not B&Z) when on the offensive. Giving up your alt & E in a 38 is often a bad idea.

BigMax · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2004, 09:22:26 PM »

It's easy...

Stay fast and break opposite my break (I'm suckering you in when I do that). You MUST get clear of my guns FAST and extend before you climb.

Most people go verticle before they need to, and give back all the E advantage they had...

Look at it like this, I just did a relatively aggressive maneuver to break your gun solution, so what did it cost me? Speed & E. So all you need to do is be patient and pick the safest path to avoid my guns whie extending and conserving your E... Extend and the grab (low G), then you dictate the fight from then on... It doesn't mean you win, but you will get to look at maneuver #2...

Keep at it... Experience is everything in this game...

BigMax · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2004, 09:26:31 PM »

You know, there is tons of talk about all these planes and what they can do.... The single most important part of any one of them is the driver... Pick a plane thet you are comfortable with, learn it, then learn how it compares to all others... You'll get lotsa kills.

Knowledge is power and a plane is only as good as the guy driving.

humble · « **Reply #12 on:** March 06, 2004, 12:35:31 AM »

JoeBWan....

After reading your post I grabbed a 38 for todays entertainment...didnt get anything that really matched up well with what your real question is but maybe can help a bit...

1st one is a bit long...I grabbed a 38 for a fighter hop then realized I had a couple of 1000lbers on board...got caught by an la-7 on the inbound hop but had enough seperation to pickle off the ord...anyway ended up with a 1 on 2 vs the la-7 and an la-5...I'm a pretty average 38 driver so nothing really fancy...just fundementally correct acm ( I think:))till they both mess up.

http://www.azhacker.com/images/film88.ahf

2nd one is short and sweet...just a basic 38 style stomp on your head move.

http://www.azhacker.com/images/film89.ahf

No clue why I threw this one in...bisquits took my base so I had to land on carrier (which I suck at)...perfect landing profile right up to bounce by mr la-7...ended up bouncing her on in with an extra pelt.
http://www.azhacker.com/images/film90.ahf

SlapShot · « **Reply #13 on:** March 06, 2004, 10:55:39 AM »

I have been flying the 38 alot as of late and the biggest tip I can give you is ...

Manual Trim only ... DO NOT USE Combat Trim. If you use combat trim, your success in the 38 will be abysmal to say the least.

(Me in a 38, enemy in N1k) As I close on their six, at around D600 they start a hard climb up and to the right.

You are coming in fast in the 38. With the centernose guns, you should already be firing a guns solution at that distance with the closeur rate that you have. Anyways ...

I'm coming in slightly faster so it takes me a little bit longer to adjust and get guns back on target. As I'm doing this the plane starts to roll inverted and goes back to the left.

Decision time ... Too fast ? Can I still track and not lose speed ?

At this point I usually chop throttle and continue to track in order to prevent overshoot.

Here is where you went wrong IMHO. At the intial engagement, I would have aready chopped throttle. At this point, I would have firewalled the 38, trimmed nose up and gone vertical.

During that barrellroll, I would bet that he has lost sight of you and is praying for the overshoot right in front of him. You had more E than he did at the start, so without making a real drastic move for firing, you should still have more E that him, especially if he has barrellrolled.

However now they are higher than me and I've lost E. If I don't chop throttle I overshoot right away, and now they are on my six with a pretty good shot.

Like I said ... you really should be above him at this point and watching him. If he is slow, which I presume he would be, I would start trimming nose down and beginning a roll over for another attack.

Occasionally (when I chop throttle) I'll get one decent shot on them before wallowing around and getting minced. Once I get slower there is no recovery due to the better acceleration of the N1k.

This could be because you have combat trim on. If you have the slightest bit of and E advantage, and trim out the 38, the N1K should not catch you.

humble · « **Reply #14 on:** March 06, 2004, 12:24:54 PM »

Slapshot...

"During that barrellroll, I would bet that he has lost sight of you and is praying for the overshoot right in front of him. You had more E than he did at the start, so without making a real drastic move for firing, you should still have more E that him, especially if he has barrellrolled. "

Thats the only point I'd question, Nikki's just don't seem to lose any E barrellrolling...as for following the nikki into a closet...takes a pretty good 38 ace to come out again. I'd love to see some nikki vs 38 knife fights if you happen to have a clip...