UFO , MIR or B17 ???

[Sharky]

Juzz,

Sorry but one referance in a book written by a guy 30 years after the fact doesn't change the fact that a fully loaded B-17 isn't getting to 32K.  Not to mention the crew would probably freeze to death even with their suits, or die from asphixia when their oxygen mask froze.  It also doesn't address wing ice or anything else.

Thanks,
Sharky

[juzz]

RAM: I didn't say they hit anything, did I? Besides that's a bombsight issue, not FM.

Mattibaby80: It doesn't really get much colder from 25k-35k I think, and if you go alot higher the atmosphere actually starts getting hotter again. I forgot the credit for my quote. It's from Four Miles High by Martin Bowman. From the inner sleeve:    

Aviation author Martin Bowman has interviewed hundreds of survivors from both air and ground crews.

So it is a quote from a veteran. Unfortunately Horward Hernan is dead, so you can't ask him personally.

As for ceiling, Boeing gives a 35,600ft ceiling for the B-17G.

Anyway the point was to disprove this rubbish:"Because in RL you couldn't get an empty B-17 to 32k let alone a loaded one" Ps: It's 2000, so it would be 2000-1943=57 years after the fact, not 30.

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 08-27-2000).]

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by juzz:
RAM: I didn't say they hit anything, did I? Besides that's a bombsight issue, not FM.

Mattibaby80: It doesn't really get much colder from 25k-35k I think, and if you go alot higher the atmosphere actually starts getting hotter again. I forgot the credit for my quote. It's from Four Miles High by Martin Bowman. From the inner sleeve:    

Aviation author Martin Bowman has interviewed hundreds of survivors from both air and ground crews.

So it is a quote from a veteran. Unfortunately Horward Hernan is dead, so you can't ask him personally.

As for ceiling, Boeing gives a 35,600ft ceiling for the B-17G.

Anyway the point was to disprove this rubbish:"Because in RL you couldn't get an empty B-17 to 32k let alone a loaded one" Ps: It's 2000, so it would be 2000-1943=57 years after the fact, not 30.

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 08-27-2000).][/b]

There is hardly any atmosphere in the thermosphere...don't expect a prop plane to fly at Sputnik alts  

Still it gets colder at altitude for every thousand feet you go up tho...

My Neighbor had a great picture of their formation in bound Germany at 29k or so, and I believe there was still a squadron above his on that raid. Still loaded, and B-17's below them as far as the eye can see  
 Which reminds me, I need to ask his wife about it.

- Jig

[Mattibaby80]

Ok, I've read what you said, I didn't mean to sound like a smart ass, and looked at that website.  But if B-17s were flying at 30k, where does that leave the escorts?  I was under the impression (and read somewhere) that escorts (not all of them) flew at least 4-6k higher than the bombers to catch anyone making diving attacks.  That puts the fighters at 34-36k, and from what I've been hearing about high altitude and the FM of the fighters, its almost impossible to catch high buffs.

Now according to your site, the B-17G had a cruising speed of about 150mph.  I find it somewhat dumb that fighters doing at least 100-200mph faster than a cruising B-17 are not able to catch it at high altitude.

Also on that website, it states that the B-17G had a maximum bomb load of 20,000 lbs of bombs, and while that is true, it wasn't used often.  Normal loads consisted of 4-5k bomb loads.  Just because it says there that the B-17G could reach 35,600 and could carry a 20k load doesn't mean it was always put into practice.

Again I don't mean to be a smart bellybutton and I'm not insulting what your saying, I'm simply voicing my own opinion on this subject.

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Meine Schwester hat keine kartoffel salat?  Du bist eine lustige Buba!!!

[Dago]

Seems like a lot of whining to me.

Sure, the buffs may be up there, but as the screenshot shows, fighters can get up there too, so whats the big deal?    

Everyone just wants easier kills.  Work for it.

BTW, the AH B17 is a G model the B17G had a listed service ceiling of 35,600 ft.

Dago

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Mattibaby80:
Ok, I've read what you said, I didn't mean to sound like a smart ass, and looked at that website.  But if B-17s were flying at 30k, where does that leave the escorts?  I was under the impression (and read somewhere) that escorts (not all of them) flew at least 4-6k higher than the bombers to catch anyone making diving attacks.  That puts the fighters at 34-36k, and from what I've been hearing about high altitude and the FM of the fighters, its almost impossible to catch high buffs.

Now according to your site, the B-17G had a cruising speed of about 150mph.  I find it somewhat dumb that fighters doing at least 100-200mph faster than a cruising B-17 are not able to catch it at high altitude.

Also on that website, it states that the B-17G had a maximum bomb load of 20,000 lbs of bombs, and while that is true, it wasn't used often.  Normal loads consisted of 4-5k bomb loads.  Just because it says there that the B-17G could reach 35,600 and could carry a 20k load doesn't mean it was always put into practice.

Again I don't mean to be a smart bellybutton and I'm not insulting what your saying, I'm simply voicing my own opinion on this subject.

Take into account the 190's have 37k service ceiling, 109's are about the same, P-51's, P-47's and P-38's all have a service celing over 40k

IMO THATS what needs to be looked into  

- Jig

[juzz]

Well those numbers are probably all correct, but just not all at the same time.  

From what I can gather, the mission in question was flown without escorts. The book also mentions that the B-17 cruised at about 160mph IAS, and the B-24 at 180-185mph IAS - which caused trouble in this mission as the Liberator groups had to zig-zag to avoid outpacing the Forts, and they ended up flying right over a big flak installation.

In AH though, you can bet that all the B-17's are flown with full throttle from T/O to landing, so they probably "cruise" at close to top speed: Around 280mph TAS. Most fighters will only have about 100mph speed advantage at 30k+. Considering that fighters are usually climbing after the B-17 at it's speed or lower to catch it, they have to reach co-alt before leveling off, accelerating and actually starting to close on it.

The real problem as I see it is that in RL, the B-17's didn't fly at 30k+ the vast majority of the time because they couldn't hit anything from up there.

Yet in AH you can hit a single AAA gun with a single bomb from 35,000ft.

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by juzz:
Well those numbers are probably all correct, but just not all at the same time.  

From what I can gather, the mission in question was flown without escorts. The book also mentions that the B-17 cruised at about 160mph IAS, and the B-24 at 180-185mph IAS - which caused trouble in this mission as the Liberator groups had to zig-zag to avoid outpacing the Forts, and they ended up flying right over a big flak installation.

In AH though, you can bet that all the B-17's are flown with full throttle from T/O to landing, so they probably "cruise" at close to top speed: Around 280mph TAS. Most fighters will only have about 100mph speed advantage at 30k+. Considering that fighters are usually climbing after the B-17 at it's speed or lower to catch it, they have to reach co-alt before leveling off, accelerating and actually starting to close on it.

The real problem as I see it is that in RL, the B-17's didn't fly at 30k+ the vast majority of the time because they couldn't hit anything from up there.

Yet in AH you can hit a single AAA gun with a single bomb from 35,000ft.

You can't see diddly over 30k.

I've seen the big building at HQ but that was it...none of the other buildings at HQ showed up and neither do the acks.

 


- Jig

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Jigster:
You can't see diddly over 30k.

I've seen the big building at HQ but that was it...none of the other buildings at HQ showed up and neither do the acks.

 


- Jig

*sticks foot in mouth*

Tried it offline. Zoom is way uber.

 

B-17 service ceiling, 35,600ft

 

29,500ft


But, I still can't hit crap from that alt  
The B-17 over-corrects to much to line up on something as small as an ack...but maybe that's just me. Even during the SE today we had trouble hitting the HQ from 24,000ft.

- Jig

[juzz]

Then how did I drop a single 500lb bomb from 35,000ft and land it 25ft from the ack I aimed at? Ever heard of the Z key?

Edit: Oops I see you have.    

This is what happened in RL when RAF B-17 dweebs tried to bomb from 30k  

 

The RAF planned to use the Fortress I on unescorted daylight bombing raids against targets in Europe, relying on the vaunted defensive firepower of the Fortress to fend off fighter attacks. The first sortie with Fortress Is was flown from Polebrook on July 8, 1941 against Wilhelmshaven. Three planes took part. Engine trouble forced one of the planes to divert to a second target, but the other two went on to attack the naval barracks at Wilhelmshaven from an altitude of 30,000 feet. Unfortunately, the planes were not able to hit anything from such extreme altitudes. In addition, their crews found that the temperatures at this altitude were so cold that their defensive machine guns froze up when they tried to fire them. However, all planes returned safely to base.

On July 24, a group of Fortresses attacked the French naval installation at Brest. They were equipped with the Sperry rather than the famous Norden bombsight. The Fortresses attacked from 30,000 feet and managed to miss their target completely. German fighters pounced on the formation, but all bombers returned to England. However, one of the raiding Fortresses was so badly shot up by the German fighters that it disintegrated upon landing.

But of course, as it is in AH, the RL LW managed to be bigger dweebs!  

 

By the end of August(1942) the Luftwaffe had two operational Ju 86Rs, and they wasted no time in getting them over England. They bombed from 40,000ft, and the Spitfire Mk VIs sent up to intercept them just couldn't make it.

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 08-28-2000).]

[Maxopti1]

Hi,

I have begun this discourse, for joke a little bit and for feel your opinion, respect to this problem.
Look like me yet that the been widening topic too.
I try to put some order. (I am presumptuous)
The fact that the B17 could fly to 36.500 ft., I think is not in discussion.

Is in discussion his precision of bombardment to altitudes so elevated.

IMHO, the precision of the Norden, for altitudes superior at 25/27K is too elevated.

My intention was of look for a common position and subsequently, ask to Pyro of modify this parameter. (If it is possible).

Probably, I am not been clear, (my English is bad.  )

The question that I set is:

Do you also think that, must the precision of the Norden to elevated altitude be modified?

If do you think so, does the altitude of 27K, to you, seem correct?

Do you think that also for the guns, must be reduced the frequency of shot to the high altitudes?

If do you think so, than and from which altitude?

Cheers!

Max

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When you are flown, there is an only certainty:
In a way or in the other, to earth you will return.

[Fishu]

Way to fix problem with high buffs would be to make engines generate more heat with higher throttle.
Was it so that B-17 engine could overheat if run over 80% throttle constantly.
Try to figure what happens when you use 100% throttle for few minutes, it would eventually overheat and start burning probably.
20% lack in throttle would really make people in AH think twice do they go fly to 35k or not.

[Revvin]

 

remove the zoom in the norden and everything will be fine

Fine remove it but give realistic splash damage from bombs, at the moment you need to hit targets right on the nose to do damage so is it any wonder bombers in AH need such a good norden and a zoom feature? its all so very easy to whine about stratto buffs (although I agree 32K+ is a bit excessive) you need to give them the capability to carpet bomb in numbers and still have an effect in the arena, or would you just like to see them lower so the stratto dweeb fighters can pick them off easier?  

[StSanta]

Well, I just want a fighting chance against buffs.

Even if I launch for an incoming raid on friendly HQ, at *best*, I can go through the bombers once. Then, after losing altitude, I have to reverse, grab alt BACK up to 35-37k and then catch up with the buffs, who are travelling at quite high speed at altitude.

Now, the occasional Astronaut is not a problem to me. But when Dweebs get organized and launch 5-8 bombers at your city and HQ, and are almost untouchable at altitude, it's just not funny anymore. It feels like cheating. You may argue that it's not, but that's how it *feels* to me. Where's the skill involved? Where's the "let's have a great fight" attitude - the one we're here to get?

Just my views.

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[Zigrat]

I think 27k is the max altitude a b17 should ever go. above that is pure dweebery.