Garand vs Enfield vs Kar 98

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by GScholz
I'm going to have to call BS on this one.

Weapon            Cartridge              Nominal    Case      Bullet     Muzzle     Muzzle energy
                                         Caliber    Length    weight     velocity   in joules
                                         in mm                in grams   in m/sec

US M1 Carbine     .30 US Carbine         7.62       33        7.1        549        1074    

Haenel StG 44     7.92mm Intermediate    7.92       33        7.8        686        1829  

AK47              7.62mm M1943           7.62       39        7.4        715        1892

It is pretty clear that the StG44 had 80% more muzzle energy than the US M1 Carbine, and that the StG44 is much more comparable to the AK-47 in power. Now, you can always argue that the AK47 isn't very accurate, but it is a very effective infantry weapon and the same goes for the StG44.

My father's service weapon back in the '60s was a US M1 Carbine. He says it was accurate the first couple of rounds, but after that accuracy was terrible. Because of the low quality steel used, the barrel would bend due to the heat of just a couple of rounds fired. [/B]

Those are awfully big numbers for such a little man?  You make them up all on your own?  Or did someone help?

First off, you were roughly 1 whole gram off of the weight of the STG round.  Makes a big difference when talking about muzzle energy.

Second, you were a whole 50 M/s lower then what the .30 Carbine actually fired.  That makes a big difference when talking about muzzle energy.

Third, you overshot the STG round's velocity by 50 m/s.  That makes a big difference when talking about muzzle energy.

The real figures show that the .30 carbine had 1300 joules of energy.  While the 7.62x33 had 1460.  

Next, factor in that the STG round was pointy, and the .30 Carbine was blunt.  The pointy round goes straight through with little energy transfer and little damage.  The blunt round can tumble, expand or do a bunch of different stuff.  But it sure as hell transfered a lot of energy into the target.



BTW, I would have called your Bull**** earlier, but I had to confer with my sources to show that yours were pulled out of someone's ***.


[aceventuravoice] HOT DAMN!  I have exorcised the demonsah![/aceventuravoice]

[GtoRA2]

Laser
 What was your source?

[VOR]

GScholz,

Excuse my earlier statement please. I appear to have been yet another victim of conventional wisdom. I fire military and commercial ammo out of all my surplus rifles, but I have never tried to fire milspec ammo out of a commercial rifle since I never really had a reason to. I had always heard and assumed the converse would be true. Guess not!  Thanks for the info.

[Dune]

A modern .30 carbine from Federal will give you:

110 grn bullet w/ a muzzle velocity of 1990 fps.


7.92x33mm (Kurz)

A 125 grn bullet w/ a muzzle velocity of 2,055 fps



Couple of points:

The Kurz's spire point would give it much better ballistics downrange.  This would make it more accurate and more powerful at distant ranges.

It's my understanding that a spire point is more likely to be deflected by bone than a round nose.  Not the other way around.

I don't believe the M2 (the full-auto version) was  issued until Korea.  

Face it, neither round equal a .300 Win Mag.  However, the design of the Stg44 was revolutionary.  The large magazine, pistol grip, operating system and even the idea behind it.  The M1 was designed as a defense weapon for officers and rear-echilon personel.  The Stg44 was an offensive weapon for assault troops.

[lazs2]

shlotz.... wrong.

The 30 carbine round is not straight walled it is tapered ... I have never seen any defenition of an assult rifle that said the case couldn't be tapered.

Also... the kimbal you show is a 30 carbine pistol... it is noted for injuring it's shooters because the blowback design was not strong enough for the powerful round.  Here in the U.S.A. tho... someone is allways chambering revolvers and single shot pistols for rifle rounds... we have 45-70 pistols and they are way down on velocity from the rifle they are also a tapered case but that doesn't make em a pistol round... I have seen 7.62/39 pistols and 223 pistols.   The carbine round is available in a revolver from Ruger but doesn't work well due to the tapered case.

The M1carbine round is very close to the german round in power.   If you put the kurtz round and the 30 carbine round in pistols they would still be close.   The carbine round was no more a pistol round than the german or soviet round.

Also.. the 8mm mauser is not even close to 30% more powerful than the ought six.  it is allmost identical with the edge in balistic coeficiency going to the ought 6 downrange.  

Also... the stock mauser was not more accurate than the stock Garrand.   I doubt that 99% of the soldiers could tell tho even if it had a slight edge which I doubt... the first thing to go in sporterized mausers was the barrel even if it was perfect   There is no reason that the mauser would be more accurate and the round would be lnherently less accurate at long range.

dune.. M2's were made in WWII.   They were made allmost from the start but I understand that they were rare... history is spotty one em even listening to the collectors with WWII soldiers swearing they were using em.   I really can't say personaly.

lazs

[lasersailor184]

Wow, even after showing your numbers were wrong, you still used them.




Just remember, everytime someone proves you wrong is no reason to insult how they prove you wrong.

[lazs2]

Well Gsholz:

Gustin's aircraft gun page shows more muzzle energy for the US .30.

See:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

And my reloading manual (Speer reloading manual #9, c. 1974) shows the following information for a 24 inch barrel using standard commercial loads.

Muzzle velocities are from chronograph

30.06 150 grain / 2849-2980 ft/sec.

8mmx57 170grain / 2278-2350.

Likewise this cartridge page gives similar muzzle velocities for data for the 8x57.

http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/8mauser/4895-175.html

Your data looks like the muzzle velocity is for a light bullet but the weight is for a heavy bullet.

lazs

[lasersailor184]

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am03-e.htm

Whoops, sorry.  Thought I had put the link in.

[lazs2]

wow shlotz.. you managed to find both the highest velocity I have seen for the mauser round and the lowest velocity I have ever seen for the ought six round..  the previous low I have seen for the 150 grain ought six round is 2740 fps.   The previous high I have ever seen for the mauser round is 2400 for the 200 grain load.

Everyone who has ever fired  Garrands with surplus ammo ( I have about 1,000 rounds of fmj 150 grain) knows that it chrono's ( I have a chrono to go with the ammo and the Garrand) at 2800-2900)  And that surplus mauser ammo (of which there is an abundance in the 170 and 180 grain) is about 2400-2500..

further.. even using your figures there is not even close to a 30% difference as you claim and....

the 150 grain ought six round is balistically superior to the mauser round and the advantage is increased with range.   The .50 cal is pretty much a larger copy of the round and we all know how well it performs.

In any case... there is nothing like 30% difference between the two... that is laughable.

I don't have pristene ammo for the Garrand headstamped from WWII but I have Korean ammo still in the clips.  It functions perfectly in the Garrand as does commercial ammo..  U.S. ammo manufactureres are VERY cautious to not make ammo that would be dangerous in guns still chambered for it.

If you or someone on the board is willing to come by I will chrono the ought six ammo and hell... I will even buy a cheap surplus 98K with a good bore and the dirt cheap surplus ammo and we will chrono it side by side.

lazs

[lazs2]

term of endearment... common American practice.

Ya know... you can buy both surplus ought six ball and 8mm mauser ammo and...  a chrongraph is only $100 or so... since you have a 98k in both 8mm and 30 06 I will let you do the testing and you can just tell me.

The reason I say that the 06 is superior downnrange is because it loses less energy after 200 yards or so.    I don't know about the problems with pressure... it seems odd since, allthough the Garrand likes to opperate within some tight pressure tollerances... it will operate with all known commercial and surplus ammo from a variety of sources in the 150-168 grain range..  At least two powders were used in WWII but the most widely used was 4895..... still made today.

lazs

[Dune]

For the 8mm Mauser using the 154grn flat-based spitzer, 2880fps load:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy
0 2880 -0.5 0 0 2836
50 2742 0.33 0.65 0.06 2571  
100 2614 0 2.46 0.11 2337
150 2490 -1.6 5.54 0.17 2120  
200 2371 -4.62 10.04 0.23 1922  
250 2254 -9.19 16.09 0.3 1737  
300 2141 -15.47 23.85 0.37 1568  
350 2031 -23.66 33.52 0.44 1411  
400 1924 -33.96 45.3 0.51 1266
450 1822 -46.61 59.43 0.59 1135  
500 1723 -61.89 76.19 0.68 1015  
550 1629 -80.09 95.87 0.77 907  
600 1539 -101.58 118.84 0.86 810

And for the .30-06 using a 150grn boattail and 2640fps:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy
0 2640 -0.5 0 0 2321  
50 2535 0.43 0.76 0.06 2140  
100 2437 0 2.87 0.12 1978
150 2342 -1.9 6.46 0.18 1827
200 2249 -5.38 11.63 0.25 1685  
250 2158 -10.6 18.54 0.32 1551
300 2069 -17.69 27.31 0.39 1426
350 1982 -26.81 38.12 0.46 1308
400 1898 -38.15 51.15 0.54 1200
450 1816 -51.92 66.6 0.62 1098
500 1736 -68.32 84.69 0.7 1004
550 1660 -87.6 105.66 0.79 918
600 1586 -110.04 129.79 0.89 838

I used the a ballistic calculator from Handloads.com

The reason the smaller '06 bullet retains more energy and velocity (not a lot but some) is due to the fact that the '06 has a higher ballistic coeficeint rating (0.442) than the 8mm Mauser (0.356)

[Hooligan]

Concerning the ballistic superiority of the .30 vs 7.92mm.

The cross sectional area of the 7.92mm round is about 8% greater than of the .30 round, and this means more drag.  So given 2 bullets of identical shape and weight the increased drag of the larger round will result in a worse BC.  From the BC's that Dune provided I can only assume that the .30 round has a better ballistic shape since the differences in BC far exceed 8%.

I have some US small arms data sheets at home from which the I got the following (I believe).  I am travelling atm but in a few days I will verify this and see what I can find on 7.92mm ball.  Here is some information for US ball ammunition:

AE3006N ball   9.72g   887 m/s
PRT 3006a ball   9.72g   887 m/s
(150 grain, 2900 ft/sec)

This gives muzzle energy of approx 3800 joules.

All the data I remember seeing (aside from random stuff of questionable accuracy on web pages) for 8mm mauser shows heavier projectiles (11g or 12g) and lower muzzle velocities (750m/sec or so) compared to the .30.  Generally this would show similar muzzle energy to the .30 ball ammo listed above, but downrange the energy would fall off more rapidly due to inferior ballistics.

However, as I said, I will have to wait a few days until I can get access to my source materials (generally declassified US 1940s manuals) and hopefully provide some exact data and sources for both rounds.

Hooligan

[lazs2]

shlotz...  for the ought six flat base bullet of 150 grains at a conservative 2700 fps.... you will get 1795 lbs of energy remaining at 200 yards.

for the 8x57 round with the same bullet weight you get about 1700 lbs remaining energy at 2750 fps

for the 170 grain 8x57 at 2530 fps you get about 1550 lbs remaining energy at 200 yards.

I don't have numbers for a 197 grain bullet.

these are for 24" barrels.

lazs

[Dune]

Originally posted by GScholz
(This is a great program! )

Scholz,

Also try the Energy, Momentum and Taylor KO calculator  and the Recoil and velocity calculator

Also, the diameters I used were .308 for the .30-06 and .318 for the 8mm Mauser.

[Dune]

First thing:  In the US, the 7.92mm is often referred to as the 8mm Mauser.  Don't know why, just is.

Secondly, even though the .30 cal is called the .30 cal, it uses a .308 size bullet.  I don't know why.  .300 Magnums also use the .308 bullet.  If you'll look at this bullet list for Nosler Partitions, you'll see the 30 cal bullet is actually .308.   As you can see from the chart, most all other cartirdges' bullets are the same size as their names, but not the .30-06 (or other .300's, such as the .300 Holland & Holland).  In fact, the British .303 actually shoots a .311 caliber bullet.

I forget exactly what the reason was, but IIRC, it had to do with the English measuring on the bore rather than the lands.  But I forget the exact reason.