Author Topic: Too freekin Bad  (Read 1568 times)

Offline Coolridr

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« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2004, 04:54:53 PM »
Is this message board the "ATTACK U.S. Policy" board? Geez..I don't read much of anything else but a bunch of people sitting on the sidelines in far off places taking jabs at us for one thing or another.

Offline ravells

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« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2004, 05:19:28 PM »
Coolrider, They are only 'scum' once they've been convicted.  If you are any advertisement for what the US stands for, then I'm afraid you are just perpetuating the PR disaster that has been US foreign policy following the invasion of Iraq.

One of the incredible things I find about many people from the US that post on this board is that they are very anti-US government when the deprevation of their rights is at stake (that's why we all *must* have guns) but somehow, when non US nationals' rights are involved, very different rules apply.

In this instance, I happen to think that getting intelligence from people incarcerated in Guantanamo bay (despite a two hour argument with my wife on the subject tonight who takes an opposite view) is, on balance, preferable to not having intelligence at all.

But we should not be proud of what is being done there, or demonise the people who are being interrogated without having faced a trial to establish their innocence or otherwise.

Ravs

Offline Coolridr

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« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2004, 05:25:11 PM »
are we to trust the word of ex-prisoners on their treatment? Have you gone to GTMO? I've been there since this all started and even I as a member of the security force (on temp assignment) wasn't allowed near the compound..any media that might have got to see anything is going to make it out to be worse than it is..because the truth is not on the media's agenda.
Non US nationals that are our prisioners of war get treated far better than our pow's have in the past. After all being in the spotlight all the time forces us to follow the rules

Offline ravells

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« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2004, 05:29:19 PM »
I was not talking about the treatment of the prisoners. I was expressing dismay that you referred to them as 'scum' when they had not undergone any open inquiry into any criminal acts or associations they have have undertaken.

I entirely agree that the US treats POWs better than many countries and is to be commended for it, but you seem to have convicted these people out of hand when, by your own admission, you havn't even heard what they have had to say in their defence.

Ravs

Offline Coolridr

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« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2004, 05:42:06 PM »
Frankly I don't care what they have to say.Shouldn't have been at the wrong place at the wrong time acting suspicious

1. I am not an Anti-Government American...I do not condemn our government for the patriot act and the little liberties that no one really notices are gone. I do not bad talk a president that as far as I'm concerned is just doing the job the WORLD should have embarked on a long time ago.

2. I think I can speak for alot of Americans when I say that  the world seems to enjoy it when someone attacks us...it sorta numbs your feelings towards non-US Nationals.

3. Trying to get a majority vote for actions we think are neccesary in the UN is time consuming and impossible..why bother. We are the current Roman Empire and like all empires the time will come when we too fade away..such is the fate of all world powers throughout history..so all you Anti-US people can look forward to that (though  I hope it is long after I'm gone)

Offline ravells

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« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2004, 05:53:47 PM »
Coolrider, I'm beginning to wonder whether what I am posting somehow magically gets translated into something else when you read it, because you are answering different points to the ones I have made.

But to deal with the points you have raised:

1. I happen to think the Patriot Act is a healthy thing, so long as it is healthily opposed, so that when the threat is gone, the act gets repealed. And as for the world, we should have done a much better job in building bridges rather than destroying them. This whole sorry situation which we have now is, IMO, just an extension of the history of foreign policy that the west has conducted in Middle East affairs, probably going back to the Crusades.

2. You have no idea how heart-broken the world was when 9/11 happened. Let me give you a few examples. In London, on the way to work the next day people were reading the newspapers and openly crying on the tube. Never seen that before. My relatives in Malaysia called me, they were in tears too. There was lots of empathy for America then.

3. I am not anti-US. I just think you have a schizophrenic idea of human rights. Yes you are an empire and yes, it won't last forever, but have a horrible suspicion that mankind might not last the course (for ecological reasons) over the next 100 years or so.

Ravs

Offline Coolridr

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« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2004, 06:07:54 PM »
Yes the patriot act should be repealed or scaled back when this time of crisis is over.

However as far as the worlds view of Americans...The British seem to be our only real supporters after all our nation is Your's little brother and we have even failed ourselves at time (war between the states is a good example).

I didn't accuse you of being anti-american..I was originally making a comment about alot of other peoples posts.

I only refered to them as scum because I feel that most of them probrably do have some shady connection to all this..we jsut don't arrest random people contrary to popular belief.

I may have misinterpeted some of your thoughts and changed the corese of this discussion at times. after all we seem to be battleing in two seperate forums at the same time and ZI may be getting posts mixed up

I agree that any intellegence..even that gathered at GTMO is better than none..

I think we may have put your prime minister on the spot during the past few times he was here attending one of W's joint sessions of congress (I think W put some words in his mouth) that involved you guys more than necessary.:D

I cannot type for **** so excuse the misytakes.:D

Offline Coolridr

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« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2004, 06:11:32 PM »
Also we Americans do care about ourselves more than anyone else and that may be where you get the idea that we are funny when it comes to our Human rights records.

Offline ravells

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« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2004, 06:15:52 PM »
good. Finally talking to each other rather than at each other.

But be careful about preconceptions about people being in the wrong place at the wrong time. As human beings we are not perfect and we do make mistakes. However, we have to be big enough to admit the mistakes when we make them. Judicial systems of enquiry have been built up over hundreds of years and we can't throw them away lightly.  So don't call anyone 'scum' until you've had a chance to hear their story. Who knows? One day, it might be you.

Ravs

Offline Coolridr

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« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2004, 06:19:33 PM »
i will try to look at differently when it comes to the POW's..I agree that it is taking an awful long time to get thjis figured out

Offline Wolfala

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« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2004, 06:21:57 PM »
"Mistakingly caught up..." How the **** did they get there in the first place? YOU WERE ON THE WRONG SIDE *******.


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline ravells

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« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2004, 06:22:13 PM »
lol! if only world problems were this easy to solve.

Life is bloody complicated.

Ravs

Offline Coolridr

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« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2004, 06:36:51 PM »
Quote
Life is bloody complicated


AGREED:aok

Offline ravells

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« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2004, 06:39:03 PM »
off to bed now. Take care and nice talking to you.

Ravs

Offline Coolridr

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« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2004, 06:40:08 PM »
you too...nice to have an intelligent discussion for a change