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Offline LAWCobra

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« on: March 12, 2004, 07:28:49 PM »
Ex-Guantanamo Detainee Claims Mistreatment    
Fri Mar 12, 7:29 AM ET  

By AUDREY WOODS, Associated Press Writer

LONDON - A Briton released from the U.S. military base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, said he was beaten, humiliated and interrogated for up to 12 hours at a time during two years' detention.

   

In a newspaper interview headlined "My Hell in Camp X-Ray," Jamal al-Harith said guards known as the Extreme Reaction Force "waded into inmates in full riot gear, raining blows on them" as punishment.


The water and food was foul at Guantanamo, and sometimes as punishment, water taps in the cells would be turned off, al-Harith, 37, said in the interview, which was published Friday in the Daily Mirror.


The U.S. military repeatedly has denied that Guantanamo prisoners have been mistreated. The U.S. government says the roughly 640 prisoners are at Guantanamo because of suspicions they have links to Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s fallen Taliban regime or the al-Qaida terror network.


Al-Harith arrived in Britain Tuesday night on a military flight with four other Britons freed from Guantanamo.


"He has been detained as an innocent person for a period of two years. He has been treated in a cruel, inhumane and degrading manner," his lawyer, Robert Lizar, told reporters.


He was regularly interrogated by FBI (news - web sites) and CIA (news - web sites) agents, and later Britain's MI5 intelligence agency, the newspaper said.


"They would shut off the water before prayers so we couldn't wash ourselves according to our religion," said al-Harith, 37, a convert to Islam. "We were only allowed a shower once a week at the beginning, and none at all in solitary confinement. This was tough because you are supposed to be clean when you pray."


"The whole point of Guantanamo was to get to you psychologically. The beatings were not nearly as bad as the psychological torture," al-Harith told the paper.


The families of the returnees have said they were mistakenly caught up in the U.S. war on terrorism.


Al-Harith describes a stay in an isolation unit known as an ISO, where those accused of misbehaving were kept in solitary confinement with just a mat and towel.


The newspaper also carried an account of what led to al-Harith's arrest.


The paper said al-Harith went to Pakistan weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States to learn about Muslim culture. Al-Harith was in Quetta near the Afghan border when the U.S. bombings against the Taliban began. He paid a driver to take him to Turkey, but was stopped in Afghanistan by an armed gang who accused him of being a spy after they saw his British passport and jailed him, according to the newspaper.


After the Taliban fell, he stayed with the Red Cross in Kandahar arranging to go home but was picked up by the Americans and interrogated. He was finally sent to Guantanamo Bay, the newspaper said.


Al-Harith said he arrived at the U.S. military detention center in Cuba on Feb. 11, 2002.


"I tried not to think about my family for two years because it hurt so much," the paper quoted him as saying. "I tried to contain everything. It was very difficult, but I survived — and I survived well."


The Mirror said al-Harith was divorced and has three children ages 3, 4 and 8.

   



Britain and the United States are continuing discussions about the remaining four Britons at the camp. Britain has insisted its nationals either receive fair trials or be returned home.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2004, 07:54:42 PM »
Suspicios enough to detain I would say.
And if that is the worst account of treatment I would say the US did pretty well.

Offline Dago

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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2004, 08:20:57 PM »
Oh yes, and I of course believe everything he has to say. NOT!

Kind of ironic that others returned to Afghanistan said just the opposite after their release, they claimed they were treated well and fed well.

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Offline majic

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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2004, 10:27:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Suspicios enough to detain I would say.
And if that is the worst account of treatment I would say the US did pretty well.



You ok Pongo?

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2004, 02:23:01 PM »
Im fine. If I was looking for terrorists I would have arrested him even by his own account. And I was trying to find out if he was a terrorist and the worst I did was keep him from washing befor he prayed. I dont think I would fear any international scrutiny of my actions. By this guys own account he was highly suspicios and treated with kid gloves. Terrorsts are real you have to look for them. I think if this is typical of the stories out of Cuba then they are fine. In fact they could get alot rougher then that and I would be fine.
I would rather the US takes these suspicios people and finds out what they can in a defensible way then turn them over to Syria for torture.
My issue has always with the invasion of iraq. Not the war on terror.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2004, 04:08:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
If the part about the beatings is true then that is over the top. The rest didn't seem too cruel or unusual. However I am categorically against detention without charge or trial, and the detention of military personnel without granting them POW status.


Charge is terrosrism. Really all charges are based on suspicion - he was suspicious. And so he was arrested.

Trial? He was released wasnt he? So were others. They were investigated, found not to be guilty and now relesead. Thats a trial...

They were kept for so long because need to investigate. No bail for such people, of course.

The only thing missing is some old golf playing judge.... They got their trials....

Offline Pei

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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2004, 04:32:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Charge is terrosrism. Really all charges are based on suspicion - he was suspicious. And so he was arrested.

Trial? He was released wasnt he? So were others. They were investigated, found not to be guilty and now relesead. Thats a trial...

They were kept for so long because need to investigate. No bail for such people, of course.

The only thing missing is some old golf playing judge.... They got their trials....


Quite frankly Grun that is complete and utter bollocks. They were never charged under any form of recognized law, they were kept in detention for 2 years without any trial and without access to legal or consular representation. The Geneva convention has rules even for illegal combatants: they must face a competent and fair trial to determine there status. This did not happen.

Why were they kept in Guantanamo rather than the US? Because the US knew that they were breaking US and international law. They had to be kept in a place where only the rule of the US military applies, rather than rule of law. The whole thing is incredible cynical. How can we in the west lecture other countries about due process and then do things like this?

If they are terrorists charge them and try them using a recognized legal system. If they are illegal combatants charge them and try them under the rules of the Geneva convention. If they have committed other crimes they must also be charged and tried. If not they must be prisoners of war and treated accordingly. We can't just detain people indefinitely on the whim of some military commander or politician.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2004, 04:51:31 PM by Pei »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2004, 04:43:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
You seem to have a strange interpretation of the concept of trial. AFAIK a trial usually involves a judge, jury, prosecution and defense, conducted publicly for all to see.


They arte not criminals.

The whole point of a trial is to determine guilt or innocence.

The fact that that a bunch of them are released proves that is going on.

You guys are stuck on the trappings of a courtroom and thats stupid.

These guys are not criminals, theyt dont belong in courthouses. Would yiu have your wife on a jury trying these people? Would you have your son be the prosecutor? Or your father a judge in a cese like this?

911 was not a crime... rcognized legal system my ass...

Pointless posturing and windowdressing like the UN....  These people are getting their freedom if they are innocent. Thats the point of a trial....

You guys are really unbelivable, I bet you were there watching 911 on TV saying to yourselves, "oh gee thats illegal, I bet it's against the fire code too...."
« Last Edit: March 13, 2004, 04:46:27 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2004, 04:59:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
I'm with Pei on this one Grun. Your version of "due process" smells too much of Lubyanka for my taste. I would rather live with increased danger of terrorism then let my government restrict my freedom of due process of justice.


What is this "my" talk? The people sent to gitmo sure arent average folks randomly plucked off the streets of America or Europe...

Now look i understand your concerns, but really dont feel they aply in this special case with extremly bad people involved. With that in mind I consider the fact that a good number of people are released to be clear evidence that a trial process is in place to determine guilt or innocence. I'm happy with that, considering the circumstances.

Offline Pei

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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2004, 05:09:15 PM »
Grun, it was a crime. A terrible, horrible crime. So was what the Nazi's did in WWII. However much you hate them it doesn't make it right that you are detaining people outside any legal system. Either something is legal or it is a crime. This even applies in war (as the Nazi's found out a Nuremburg).

The one thing that makes the western world better than the rest isn't money and power. It isn't capitalism or democracy. It is the supremacy of civil law: everything we do must be meet the highest standards of legality. From this everything else follows: life, liberty and happiness. The US was founded on this: the Constitution enshrines rights and freedom in law.

By ignoring law we start on a road that leads to Saudi Arabia and China: where the word of a government official or a military officer is enough to convict any citizen.

The War Against Terror isn't just about life and limb, it is a war for our way of life against a way of life we find repugnant. If we make ourselves physically safe but in doing so turn our countries into tyrannies then we will still have lost.

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2004, 05:13:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pei
Quite frankly Grun that is complete and utter bollocks. They were never charged under any form of recognized law, they were kept in detention for 2 years without any trial and without access to legal or consular representation. The Geneva convention has rules even for illegal combatants: they must face a competent and fair trial to determine there status. This did not happen.

Why were they kept in Guantanamo rather than the US? Because the US knew that they were breaking US and international law. They had to be kept in a place where only the rule of the US military applies, rather than rule of law. The whole thing is incredible cynical. How can we in the west lecture other countries about due process and then do things like this?

If they are terrorists charge them and try them using a recognized legal system. If they are illegal combatants charge them and try them under the rules of the Geneva convention. If they have committed other crimes they must also be charged and tried. If not they must be prisoners of war and treated accordingly. We can't just detain people indefinitely on the whim of some military commander or politician.


Very well put Pei!  I have been trying to see both sides of the coin, but as you put it, if they were guilty then simply charge and punish them.  I was leaning towards defending their imprisonment but you've enlightened me the other way now!
NEXX

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2004, 05:27:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
If the part about the beatings is true then that is over the top. The rest didn't seem too cruel or unusual. However I am categorically against detention without charge or trial, and the detention of military personnel without granting them POW status.


In order to be a POW you are required to give your Name, Rank and Serial No. The reason of which is to distinguish yourself from a terrorist or sabatour. Funny thing about these detainees, they can't provide a rank and serial number. Now by law they can be tried before a military tribunal and if found quilty, executed. This clown doesn't like how he was treated.

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2004, 05:42:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pei
Grun, it was a crime. A terrible, horrible crime. So was what the Nazi's did in WWII. However much you hate them it doesn't make it right that you are detaining people outside any legal system. Either something is legal or it is a crime. This even applies in war (as the Nazi's found out a Nuremburg).

The one thing that makes the western world better than the rest isn't money and power. It isn't capitalism or democracy. It is the supremacy of civil law: everything we do must be meet the highest standards of legality. From this everything else follows: life, liberty and happiness. The US was founded on this: the Constitution enshrines rights and freedom in law.

By ignoring law we start on a road that leads to Saudi Arabia and China: where the word of a government official or a military officer is enough to convict any citizen.

The War Against Terror isn't just about life and limb, it is a war for our way of life against a way of life we find repugnant. If we make ourselves physically safe but in doing so turn our countries into tyrannies then we will still have lost.



Just what legal system would you use to prosecute the animals
that just murdered 200 innocent people in Madrid. If they are part of a terrorist organization that is world wide and are part of planning other acts of terrorism. Would you provide a legal defense that requires you give their lawers discovery rights. In other words tell them what you know about their organization, and how you came about that information. Of course this is all in open court you can't have secret trials.

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2004, 06:13:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
If you don't have a rank and serial number you're usually a civilian. That "clown" is a subject of the United Kingdom and was illegally detained by US forces.

This British subject is in a terrorist training camp in afganistan training to kill. Thats your idea of a civilian? Those U.S. Marines are not there to advise this moron of his rights. I would give him the right to remain silent permenately...Now look closely at your own post you want to give this CIVILIAN pow status???



Your going to fight terrorism by treating them like shoplifters? Better hope they don't get pissed at Norway.

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2004, 06:19:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
No I'm going to fight terrorism by not letting them turn me into what you sadly have become. You have lost your war on terror.


I haven't lost a damn thing.......Now what is it,Civilian mass murderer or POW, if he's a POW wheres his rank and serial number?