Author Topic: MK108 damage photos, please ?  (Read 10501 times)

Offline Wilbus

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2004, 07:18:22 PM »
Mk103 a much bigger and heavier gun, it's also much more powerfull. While the Mk108 shoots away it's shells with about 600 meters/s (exact figures anyone?) the 103 shoots its away with over 900 meters/s. Better trajectory, longer range, greater hitting power, I think the gun is almost 3 times as heavy though and it's got a lower rate of fire.
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Offline Karnak

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2004, 08:03:44 PM »
I've seen a photo of a Mossie that was hit right on the tail cone by one.  Blew the tail cone apart, but the Mossie still made it home.

I recall another Mossie got hit by three and made it home.  They all detonated.

There is a picture out there of a P-51D that has a hole behind the pilot from a Mk108 round that failed to detonate.


Just to give an idea of how random making it and not making it can be, I've seen a photo of a Ju88 that was hit by a Spitfire with a single Hispano round on it's tail cone, just like the Mosquito in my first paragraph, and the damage was fatal. The pilot did manage a soft landing though, hence the photo.

I don't think there is any question that an Mk108 round does significantly more damage than a Hispano round and I doubt anybody could reasonably claim the Mossie was all that much tougher than the Ju88.  Bother aircraft have reputations for being rugged.
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Offline Batz

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2004, 08:41:49 PM »
Karnak those planes are the "miracles". You can't claim they are representative of anything, either toughness or "randomness", unless there is a detailed study that not only includes those that "made it home" but those that didn't.

What if 9 out of 10 mossies dies from 1 mg17 hit and 1 out ten made it home after surviving a 3cm hit? Does the 1 surviving tell anything?

My neighbor Jessie was shot in the head by a 38 several years ago and survived. Does that demonstrate anything? One can still say with a certain level of certainty that getting shot in the head with a 38 would kill you, same with getting hit with an mk108.

Milo,

Unless the Brits up the HE content of the 3cm in their tests that image shows the damage a 3cm can cause. You can see how thick the skin is on that image and the 3cm just need to penetrate it and detonate to cause serious structural damage. By hanging the round in the center you see a more even distribution of the blast effect but even if it didn’t detonate dead center the damage would have been severe.

Hristo,

IIRC Milo is right that the 3cm was suspended from a string and adjusted so that the round was centered in the fuselage. It was then detonated. I see if I can find the info.

Offline Karnak

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2004, 09:33:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Karnak those planes are the "miracles". You can't claim they are representative of anything, either toughness or "randomness", unless there is a detailed study that not only includes those that "made it home" but those that didn't.  


Oh, I agree absolutely.  That is what I was talking about at the end with the Ju88 downed by one Hispano round.

It usually cannot be determined how many hits and of what kind brought an aircraft down because the aircraft is so thoroughly destroyed by its subsequent interaction with the ground.

Those aircraft that make it home after taking heavy hits tend to create a myth about how durable their type is.  Look at how frequently that P-47 that came home after being shot up by the Fw190 comes up and how it is used to claim that a P-47 should always take that much damage.  What you don't hear about is the P-47 that was hit by a single MG151/20 round and had its elevators jammed or the cables severed, consquently not making it home.

In one of my books I have an account of a Mosquito bomber that had a flak burst go off near it.  After returning it was found that one piece of shrapnel hit it and severed all but one strand of one wire of the elevator runs.  Now that doesn't say that the Mossie was tough, it says that the crew got lucky in that the shrapnel wasn't a milimeter more on target.  If it had been nobody would have ever known what had downed that aircraft, it simply wouldn't have returned.  As it was the ground crew's comment when telling the crew was that they'd "Virtually bought it".

Now, due to the Mosquito's construction and the way in which the MK108 does damage I do think the structure of the Mosquito is significantly more durable than a similarly sized aluminum aircraft would be.  However the above examples are not what lead me to think that.  It also must be said that even if the Mosquito's skin and spars are better able to take an MK108 round that hardly assures survival.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2004, 09:36:11 PM by Karnak »
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Offline GScholz

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2004, 10:28:03 PM »
Oh pretty please with sugar on top let me see the Spit!!! Preferably burning brightly with a huge plume of black smoke!!! :D
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Offline _Schadenfreude_

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Re: Re: MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2004, 01:32:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hogenbor
I've seen the pic of the Blenheim. One hit to the rear fuselage and the plane was virtually shot in two. In flight it would have broken. Like to see what happens to a Spitfire though, although I know full well what happens in AH :D


Pinged a Mig3 (UB I think) with the 108 massive flash on his wing root then he started flying sort of funny, level but slightly at an angle, slid below him and hit his engine area with 13mm before I could fire again with the 30mm he started to burn, Virtual 1 Finnish server - so yep no instant kills with 30mm, also  not so many massive damage hits, more degradation of systems leading to failure to fly.

Offline Staga

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2004, 02:02:37 AM »
Karnak I've seen a pic of P-47 Thunderbolt which crashed due a single bullet from a rifle. Strange things happen but not too often.

Offline Staga

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2004, 02:09:18 AM »
MiloMorai please answer this one question: What were those British engineers doing when they put that 30mm shell on the Blenheim's fuselage and detonated it?
Were they doing it just for the fun or were they maybe testing something? If yes then what were they testing ?

btw I've also seena pic of Bf109 which flew back to base after P-39's 37mm shell detonated in rear fuselage. Not a pretty sight but could still fly.

Offline Batz

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2004, 02:16:31 AM »
Quote
Now, due to the Mosquito's construction and the way in which the MK108 does damage I do think the structure of the Mosquito is significantly more durable than a similarly sized aluminum aircraft would be. However the above examples are not what lead me to think that. It also must be said that even if the Mosquito's skin and spars are better able to take an MK108 round that hardly assures survival.


Well yes the Minengeschoß rounds were designed to destroy the structural integrity of stressed skinned all metal aircraft. They were effective in doing this. They had a harder time with the cloth skinned aircraft like the Hurricane and "wooden" aircraft like the Mossie.

The damage is a result of overpressure from the expanding gasses in the confined spaces with in the aircraft. On stressed skinned aircraft structural integrity is dependent on the stressed skinned, if enough of it fails so does the aircraft. OTOH the Hurri strength is in the framing. The cloth skins adds to it but the plane can still fly with huge portions blow away.

There is shrapnel from the exploding Minengeschoß but not enough to destroy an aircraft on its own.

Early on there were fuzing problems but thes were mostly solved. Late in the war a "hydrostatic" fuze was developed for the 3cm round. It would detonate upon entering a fuel tank.

Offline Tony Williams

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2004, 02:57:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hristo
a good site about MK 108 shells

http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163/weapon15.htm


An interesting site, I've never seen such detailed information on the rounds before.

The one which has puzzled me for some time is the AP practice shell. It is the same shape and weight as the Hartkern round used for tankbusting in the high-velocity MK 103, so that was presumably meant to be the 'warshot'. But against what, exactly? The whole philosophy of the MK 108 was as a low-velocity deliverer of large quantities of HE; I can't imagine a less suitable user of a Hartkern!

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Offline -tronski-

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2004, 03:33:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
Karnak I've seen a pic of P-47 Thunderbolt which crashed due a single bullet from a rifle. Strange things happen but not too often.


I read once about a groundskeeper who shot down a low Do-17 with two shots from a rifle (one in each engine)...

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Offline VO101_Isegrim

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2004, 07:21:38 AM »
Double.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2004, 07:31:49 AM by VO101_Isegrim »

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2004, 07:31:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Oh pretty please with sugar on top let me see the Spit!!! Preferably burning brightly with a huge plume of black smoke!!! :D


Now ain`t that a most beutiful sight ? :eek:



No black smoke and sugar though. :(

Here are few more. The B-17`s is rather scary.
http://www.pbase.com/isegrim/gun_pics

These two show wgat a dud MK 108 round does. The damage is still considerable.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/Bordwaffen/B26dudMK108-1.jpg
http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/Bordwaffen/B26dudMK108-2.jpg

Offline thrila

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2004, 07:36:33 AM »
very nice pics isegrim
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Offline GScholz

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2004, 09:45:23 AM »
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