Author Topic: MK108 damage photos, please ?  (Read 9948 times)

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2004, 12:00:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Is this you Isegrim?

http://www.pbase.com/image/12103526


No, some Finnish guy I believe in the cocpit of a G-6 in a Finn museum, probably from one of the finn virtual squads. I took the photo from somewhere on the net.

Offline MiloMorai

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2004, 12:06:33 PM »
You got it from the thread at Ubi/Il-2 in which you and Huckles tried to say the 109 had better vision from the cockpit than a P-51.

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2004, 12:38:13 PM »
Apart from the fact your personal feud is irrelevant to the question and does a disservice to this thread, it also fails to have any connection with the actual events.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2004, 01:10:55 PM »
Barbi, since you had a faulty memory, all I did was tell you where you got the pic from.:rolleyes: :aok

The only one that has shown any antaganisum is you.:)

Offline bolillo_loco

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2004, 01:30:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
You got it from the thread at Ubi/Il-2 in which you and Huckles tried to say the 109 had better vision from the cockpit than a P-51.


yep that huckbien guy is a character over at ubi. now strictly speaking about the ubi game and not real life, the 109 w/ that hood does have better visibility to the rear than the 51.

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2004, 02:02:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bolillo_loco
yep that huckbien guy is a character over at ubi. now strictly speaking about the ubi game and not real life, the 109 w/ that hood does have better visibility to the rear than the 51.


Yep. BTW, did you noticed that there`s a huge errors in those 109 canopies in Il-2? The early E/F series are about fine, but the G-2 and G-6 have canopy bars missing.
And the ones with the Erla Haube... they were modified from 3D models of old canopies into the new one, but the canopy bars were left there, on the top front/sides.. it`s clearly visible as there are bars suddenly ending at the 5 o clcik high view, exactly where the old 2-piece canopy swung...

I hope Oleg gets this old bug modelled, along with several minor 3d model issues of the 109s with the new sim BoB.

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2004, 04:57:24 PM »
How about that source MiloMorai? Can we see it?
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline JB73

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2004, 10:39:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
Here are few more. The B-17`s is rather scary.
http://www.pbase.com/isegrim/gun_pics
nice find...

notice the .50 cal damage on the 109.

sorry to say im getting very disillusioned with the ballistics modeling in AH

the more books i read, and the more information i see posted here... well, besides terrible leadership and terrible defense plans the germans should have dominated the air war. (not that i'd want them too... just discussing the engineering and design of allied vs. german planes and such)
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2004, 11:34:30 AM »
73, they were ganged like a two bit bish (always wanted to say that :D). Aircraft performance wise they were better at all times except in late 1943 and early 1944 ... the most crucial period of the air war and when Germany finally lost the war completely. What they failed in 1943 was to compensate for the fact that the air war in the west shifted to higher and higher altitudes, and probably due to the mess that was the German High Command, they failed to produce high altitude fighters before it was too late.

You're right though. AH's damage model emphasizes too much on kinetic energy, making high velocity weapons far too good, and penalizing low velocity guns that used HE blast effect as their main method of destruction.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline JB73

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« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2004, 12:00:45 PM »
even in 43-44 and so on the german planes from what i have read performed better. at alt too.

just wasn't enough of them or they were sent to do innane things like dive bomb in a 262.

yeah they were ganged lol. gd prison rape more like it lol.
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2004, 12:18:25 PM »
High altitude TA152's (A or B, can't remember which one without looking it up) was 100% ready for production in 1943, all that was needed was teh GO from the RLM but they decided to scrap the project. Why? No idea...
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline HoHun

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MK108 damage photos, please ?
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2004, 12:27:05 PM »
Hi Karnak,

>Now, due to the Mosquito's construction and the way in which the MK108 does damage I do think the structure of the Mosquito is significantly more durable than a similarly sized aluminum aircraft would be.

The opposite is true. Wood was especially vulnerable against explosive damage.

In the 1930s Winter and Tschischwitz examined aircraft battle damage focusing on 20 mm shells in their report FB505. They used the old MG C30 shells as the more effective mine shells hadn't been developed yet.

"The trials proved that plywood only has little resistance to hits by explosive shells. Reinforcing the plywood by applying cloth covering, integrating wire mesh layers, using smaller segments and using bakelite-impregmated layers did not result in any improvements. In comparison to plywood, the materials Duralumin and Electron show very much superior behavior.

[...]

4) Extremely heavy damage was observed for plywood-covered stabilizers. The extensive cracking of the skin that hardly seems to absorb any energy is remarkable."
However, I'd guess wood still may have been superior in the way you indicated against the machine gun rounds which made up the main defensive firepower of the Luftwaffe night bombers and night fighters."

I'm sure you're aware of the famous "missing wingtip" Mosquito photograph. It clearly shows just the kind of crack mentioned in the Winter and Tschischwitz report that caused the loss of the skinning on the underside of the wing. You won't see this kind of extending damage on metal aircraft.

Wood is vulnerable. A metal Mosquito would have been a lot tougher.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2004, 12:29:46 PM »
Hi Tony,

>The one which has puzzled me for some time is the AP practice shell.

I'd assume it was less a practice shell and more a proving shell.

For a low-velocity gun, you might consider it a disproving shell ;-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2004, 12:41:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
High altitude TA152's (A or B, can't remember which one without looking it up) was 100% ready for production in 1943, all that was needed was teh GO from the RLM but they decided to scrap the project. Why? No idea...


How about that source MiloMorai? Can we see it?


 


No you can't because I only seen it.:)


The Ta152A was to be a meduim altitude heavy fighter.  It is hard to have an a/c ready for production if there are no prototypes constructed and no a/c were contracted for. The main reason was the Jumo213 was not available in sufficent numbers. The Ta152B was simular but with different guns.

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2004, 12:42:47 PM »
Hi Wilbus,

>High altitude TA152's (A or B, can't remember which one without looking it up) was 100% ready for production in 1943

Maybe you're thinking of the Fw 190B (also called Höhenjäger 1) that was scheduled to enter mass production in June 1942?

It was basically the same as the Fw 190A, but featured an increased wing span and external supercharger intakes to exploit ram effect.

Performance-wise, it was a good match for the Spitfire F. IX/Merlin 61 (which was optimized for a rather high altitude).

The series was called off because the trend towards higher combat altitudes finally stopped in 1942.

This tactical change is also evident from the later Spitfire IX subvariants being optimized for medium altitudes instead, roughly matching the Fw 190A's performance there.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)