-Special Event Report-

[Dinger]

To answer your question, Kieren, in Brand W scenarios the 32-plane limit does rear its ugly head from time to time.  Nevertheless, preventative measures are taken, most notably breaking large groups into flights.  Exceeding the 32-plane limit almost always hurts the buffs more than the fighters.  If the 32 closest objects to your buff are friendlies, and all of a sudden a bandit shoots in, chances are he'll score his kills before getting swapped an object slot.  And that is what happened.  Flying in too large groups is not beneficial to the health of bombers.

The FR takeoff issue is another sore spot.  Now, my system may not be the shiniest out there, but it certainly can handle flying in formation with a lot of buffs.  What it can't handle is drawing 25 bombers at maximum detail level.  Perhaps it would work better to have the planes take off in sequence and do a forming circle over the field?

[JENG]

Got in scenario arena way in time. When people began logging in it became a bit confusing (kieren, rip, and bigjim had to repeat the appropriate channels for 109 and 190 about thousand times). Then it became apparent that rooks where outnumbered but that was changed.
ok on to the event itself.
I flew in the 109G10 squad with ripsnort as lead (I winged for him). We started off and climbed out... apparently not all launched at the same time since alot were lagging behind (bout 5 K) Ripsnort solved this by making gentle turns so laggers could 'cut the corner'...we were directed by kieren and ripsnort (4 planes were flying armed recon... and doing a good job). Our 109 squad began seeying dots when we reached 33K. We climbed high enough (directions from kieren) to be at co-alt with the ponies sweeping in front of the buffs. We went level and spread out... (all began going fast) We slashed through the ponies flying sweep and flew at the buffs a bit W and much higher... Then rip called 'IN' and I followed him on an oblique split S into the main buffstream. I followed rip into the leftflank of the bombers... he ripped a 17 apart but not enough (the buff warped away)... I then left his tail and went on the lead 17... (rip followed on my tail) closing in at 420mph I began shooting with my 3 20mm's at 700 yards... and rolled inverted while shooting (wanted to pull out under the buff)no hits from guns (lots of tracers tho from all around) I ripped his wing but right as I flew under me I got hit by his wing...(he spinned because I removed a wing) went in a spinning dive... pony followed (stupid since I lost a wing) bailed at 19 K and landed safely in the silk. Went up again with 109 (together with rip) headed south... lots of ponies... but apparently the buffs where in the front formation so I missed them... assist on pony... landed back at 17.

SUGESTIONS
main things
1) HTC should make some official 'organisers' of events who have CM capability. That way they can smooth things out, and dissable for example bish fields (annoying), DAR, ICONS, as needed.
2) Assign a different channel for newbies and walkons to go to so they don't clutter the open channel (grey). (channel for all countries, 202 for example).
3) Up to the organisers... but they should make numbers more 'even'... it seemed to me that LW where to many (even though we were outnumbered). There were only 9-10 buffs which is to few and way to many ponies.
4) after a certain time make the arena 'closed' so nobody can interfere.
5) Get a proper debrief (can only be done if organisers have CM capability).
6) Let bails also count as deaths... as I see it in the Real world a LW pilot wouldn't be able to get in another plane after he bailed and attack the same formation once again... DEATH = DEATH + BAILED


All in all I realy enjoyed flying this little scenario... it was alot of fun...and I realy hope we get lots of them


------------------
BEE
'Nemo Impune Lacessit'
 
JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 02-28-2000).]

[Ripsnort]

I agree on the NO DAR, that would help the Allied, or possible, have one or two forward fields with dar only, or limted dar,this would be closer to historical, LW did have dar in WW2, and knew the positions of the bombers prior to intervention.

he last roster check before rolling showed 29 LW pilots and 41 Allied. Some of the 'scorts for ALlied
                    should have turned bomber pilot, that probably would have made the allied penentration alot deeper.

                    When I arrived on the fighter escort, we were at 32K, the assigned alt for this scenario, Bee noted that there
                    were 3 or 4 enenmy fighters that "Had Alt" on us..we adjusted our alt to 33K...this alt was broadcast to the
                    group of 109's though I didn't have time to 'look back' to see if everyone was adhering to max. alt.

                    I thought for being an adhoc scenario, and as many walk-ons as there were, it went pretty smoothly...believe
                    me, I've seen alot worse!

                    Definately need "someone in blue" aka a CM to lead it all, and doors locked (if possible) after the cut-off
                    time.

                    Pongo, you sure the (4) fighters (190's, 109's) you saw early weren't our scouts? We had them shoot up
                    ahead of everyone for a sitrep.

                    Anyway, thanks CaveJ and Kieren for the great fun! Next time I'll fly a bomber, the odds of 29 fighters vs. 9
                    bombers wasn't good odds for you guys, tis too bad you couldn't get about 10 of those 51 drivers to drive a
                    Boeing.

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
JG2 "Richthofen"
 
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-28-2000).]

[CavemanJ]

First, I would like to thank everyone who flew in this.  As the number of pilots in the arena approached 60 we were floored at the response we got.  We were worried about having enough pilots to make it worth the long flight, turns out we got More than enough.  The best count I could guess at on the channel I choose for the bombers was 18.  The amount of traffic in the text buffer (from pretty much everyone) made it hard to keep up with the guys as they responed to a "check in" call.

This is the first time I've tried to organize something like this and I've learned ALOT from it =).  Things that will be applied to the next event.  I'm gonna sift through everything over the next week and start planning the next scenario.

As the organizer I can say it would have been helpful to have had the powers mentioned by everyone else above.  To add to the list everyone above has started, it would also be nice to be able to turn killshooter on/off (if killshooter had been off there's a good possibility we'd have this w/o icons =) and "lock" the arena so noone else could get in (like at launch, avoids confusion of stragglers showing up as birds are rolling, grabbign one to launch with the group, then asking for directions/loadout/target after we're in the air, then open it again after the start for observers =).  The ability to set ratios (even just for country:country) would have been very helpful for this one.

I also think the mass confusion is a very good example of needing to register with the event coordinators before hand.  This way the preflight breifing can be delivered via email, with only small refinements made and specific questions answered once we're in the arena getting ready for launch.  I believe our next event _will_ require preregistration for this reason, and once we have all the registered pilots settled in we can deal with walkins.

All in all, it was a blast.  My heart lept into me throat when I saw the cloud of dots that turned out to be 109s and 190s =)

Thanks again to all who participated, and look for a new TWC event to be posted sometime in the next week or two (hopefully =)

[RAM]

So much being talked about icons...so here is my proposal:

DISABLE THEM!!!! yes yes I know I know...well lets say the only Icons you'll see are your squadmate's ones. NO more.
Why no icons? Simple. I WANT TO SEE BOMBERS SHOOTING P51s (lol) and thats historical. also adds importance to visual awareness, you must IDENTIFY your cons visually, and you still have the zooming...and the fact that your squad has icons activated allows you to form in a schwarm, a finger four, or a box...depending the side you fly  

So...ICONS OUT! REALISM IN!!!  

RAM runs to a deep bunker trying to protect himself against the rage of everyone

 

PS:to all that think I am mad, I must remember everyone that I CANT see any plane against the ground because of gamma blending. That'd kill my dowmwards shooting, so I'm not asking for crazy things, only for REAL ones.

my 2 cents


------------------
Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

 

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-28-2000).]

[Pongo]

 

Originally posted by Ripsnort:


Pongo, you sure the (4) fighters (190's, 109's) you saw early weren't our scouts? We had them shoot up
                    ahead of everyone for a sitrep

Ya we are sure, we could see bishops approaching from 2 from the time of takeof. I eventually was overtaken by them and watched them toodle through the formation...
Rip, sorry but we needed every escort we had.
I think the ballence in this one would be about 50% fewer interceptors. Think about it the bombers took 100% casultys.. Not one made it to the target(I dont think) any change to the balance has to let the bombers have at least a 50% chance to LAND..


------------------
Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Minotaur]

I would be willing to try the "No Icons" idea for SEA activities, but doubt I could be effective.  I just can't see the planes well enough.  I doubt that I could participate. (I use a 21 inch monitor   )

In MA I often turn off Icons in the process of seeing what planes those players around me are flying.  More times than not the plane just vanishes, especially when seen against the ground with the Icon off.

Example:
Yesterday I was d700 from a B-26, when I turned off the Icons, it became almost invisable.  I could barely make it out in the ground clutter.  I was co-alt with the B-26 at 2k, the B-26 was flying along the side of a hill.  I convinced myself that I would have flown right on by and not seen it at all, had Icons been off the whole time.

In an Allied vs Axis scenerio, the LW camo scheme would most likely prevent my particpation.  Perhaps with more practice I could get to a reasonable ability.  Unlikely this will happen IMO.

[RedStar]

I would like to thank all of the pilots that were in the event. This being the first time I helped with something like this I thiught it went rather well. I hope that we can do something again like this in the future.

BTW when I saw all those 109's and 190's one word came to mind....Damn! That was a lot of planes loved every second of it.

------------------
RedStar
The Wrecking Crew

[BaneX]

Had a blast in the scenario this weekend. I was flying LW myself specifically the 190 so of course I got bomber attack. I was one of the 4 scouts and I have to agree the first word that came to mind when I saw all the dots from the bombers and 51's was DAMN!!  

I do think the 32 plane limit caused a problem as the first two bombers I downed never even fired a shot, but it was still put together well I thought and I throroughly enjoyed the entire experience. Well done guys my hats off to all of you.

------------------
BaneX

JG2 "Richthofen"
 

[This message has been edited by BaneX (edited 02-28-2000).]

[Pongo]

 

Originally posted by BaneX:
Had a blast in the scenario this weekend. I was flying LW myself specifically the 190 so of course I got bomber attack. I was one of the 4 scouts and I have to agree the first word that came to mind when I saw all the dots from the bombers and 51's was DAMN!!    

I do think the 32 plane limit caused a problem as the first two bombers I downed never even fired a shot, but it was still put together well I thought and I throroughly enjoyed the entire experience. Well done guys my hats off to all of you.

well the first one was me not expecting any fighters behind me(no warning) and wowing the view up through my fellow buffs, escorts on high right and I think LW from hi left...I was looking right up through the whole column.... most all of the bombers were not far behind me... of course the view was best with icons off....



------------------
Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Kieren]

LOL Pongo!

Not the best way to buy it...  

I was a B17 on the ill-fated Rojo raid from 9 a couple weeks back. I had dropped back in the stream a bit to allow two low buffs some cover while they tried to catch up. Along comes the first 109... I pop back to what I thought was the tail gun... nope, was the waist, other waist, top, tail...

I manage to get in the tail in time to see rudder leave, but I did smoke his engine.  Seems I was used to the B26 key setup and lost track of my gun keys in the heat of the moment!

Next time up you can be sure I reacquainted myself with the views, and got 3 more kills before we bought it.  

[RangerBob]

I know this has been a long thread, but I feel I have to post this note from one of the bomber pilots.

Most of you indicating how much fun it was were flying fighters. I am a bomber pilot at heart and was pleased to get my choice, but the 32 plane view problem made the bomber defence almost useless unless you were out of formation. My film view shows no enemy fighters to shoot at while my plane takes constant hits. Most of the bombers were gone within 30 seconds, because they couldn't fire back.

The other take off, organizational, and group problems can be addressed. This was the first scenario and such problems are expected. The organizers did an excellent job for the first scenario.

The 32 view problem has to be fixed or you aren't going to get bomber pilots in the future. It doesn't happen in other on line flight sims. Why is it happening here? It didn't happen in Airwarrior, but if it did you had the option of turning on only enemy icons which would have solved the problem in this scenario.

Let's make sure that something does get done about this problem so we can all enjoy these enjoyable historic matchup scenarios.

I wish to express my thanks to all those who took part in organizing this first scenario.

Ranger Bob

[snafu]

Hi all,
   Apologies if I cover anything already dealt with by others. (The thread had only just been started when I sneaked a look at work, over 24H have now passed since the event). Also apologies for it being   s   o            l    o    n    g

   Just a note to add my thanks to all who both organised & participated in the special event last night (GMT timezone). I was just about to log off when Keiren dropped into the main arena  to request "volunteers", I'm glad I stayed.

   The patience displayed by those who helped organise this was a credit to you all. I got the impression that about 80% of all pilots joined on the spur of the moment  and they were all despatched to thier respective countries & duties with the minimum of fuss.

   The sight from the cockpit (B17) with all the Icons turned off was truly amazing (Even if my FPS did hit 3 [three] at one point).

   The flight pattern was for me at least fairly familiar (Tower, Hanger, Fly, Gain Alt, Let off a few rounds, Get shot down), Thanks Banex (I don't think) :-), There I was top turret tracking a 109 when I thought "I'm sure there was a wing there when I last passed this point Oh   S H * T", Still the view from the "Chute" was worth seeing, and I didn't die,

   I don't think I was the 1st to get shot down, and I certainly wasn't the last, The spirit of downed pilots requesting to join as "Gunners" just goes to prove that some of us just didn't want it to end.

   There were low points, (Apart from getting shot down). I couldn't get my engines to start until everyone had gone (No idea why), I think there were 2 others behind me when I finally got off so most of the flight was spent playing "catch up". Then there were the "Bish" B26 and P51's etc that got in the way, What was that all about?  Despite Polite (I thought so anyway) requests to stay away I think they had to be disposed of in the end. Who were they? does anybody know? Something has to be done about people like that, Perhaps they were "newbies" but I don't think so, Even if they were  they should have known better, Perhaps some kind of Account suspension is the answer here. Another way could be to keep the "Special Events Arena" closed to pilots on the "Play before you pay period" except by personel invite. That way at least if it happens again you'll know they are an A**hole". Perhaps one of you would like to justify your behavour in this thread, I might be easy prey in the main arena but I know many pilots who would make sure you never get off the ground again.

   I'd like to see it next time with no Radar & the possibility of multiple take off points (Might help the FPS issue - well mine anyway), I would love to see it without "Icons" but don't think it would work (Not with my system anyway) Bombers are easy enough to pick out but the friend/foe on fighters means that the poor B17 gunner would have to wait until it was nearly too late so as not to kill thier own escorts.

Formation, I know this would require A lot of prep and an assurance that those who said they would come actually did so this is just an observation, but Bombers flew in a formation for a reason, It would have helped us as well. It's far easier to cover just one side of a box than have to jump around turrets checking your 12, 6, Hi, Low etc

   Finally (Anyone still there), Am I alone in thinking this is another example of proof that the 2 country system is better than the one we currently use?

   Finally, (Really) Thanks guys it was amazing.

TTFN
snafu.

[snafu]

   Duplicate post (Sorry)

[This message has been edited by snafu (edited 02-29-2000).]

[humble]

I was one of the walk on's for the allied side, what a blast, seeing that 24k furball was a blast ...I do have a couple comments/questions.

1) I'm gonna load roger wilco, but there was no command structure i could plug into so I was basically an uninformed tag along.

2) I was a little in front of the hoard at point of engagement and one of the recon 109s blew thru coming down from 33-34k, gave me a real understanding of problems with "close escort" they hit bombers before anyone could get lead in em.

3) my frame rate stayed pretty hi but i unloaded almost my whole clip into a 190 before it finally went...some was wide but lot seemed right on..is net lag worse in large furball??


All in all was a great time, many thanks to Cave redstar and all the rest for taking time to set it up...and piss on the bishops who wouldnt log