"Reagan was right..."

[Glasses]

I believe a certain amount of money should be invested in an anti defense missile system, however intel is our primary concern I think . Getting it accurately and in a timley fashion in order to secure all of us.

There are still some nations that might be encouraged to play nuke chicken witha few nukes that could be dettered with an effetive  nuke shield, like those from NK and Iran. Though the latter has been said is due for a democratic revolution, when will that happen only  the Iranians know....

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Torque
I dunno Rip you cut & paste and reaffirmed what i had previously written. That the Patriot is in fact an anti-missile system and not just an anti-aircraft missile system as Iron first mentioned. Then with your bbs wisdom you call me foolish.

Didn't Bush Sr and the Army ask for billions more while touting a 90% hit ratio after the Gulf War, it only took congressional hearings to get the actual ratio which was only 10%  

and you freakout aboot a BJ.

Not quite what transpired Torque. I said it was designed to be anti-aircraft, not anti-missile. You refuted that, even graced us with the rolley eyes. It was much later modified for missiles as Rip pointed out.

BTW, I dispute that 10% effectiveness, got a link?

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by AKIron
BTW, I dispute that 10% effectiveness, got a link?

The number is misleading.  It complete ignores the fact that a salvo of 3-4 Patriots were usually fired at each target.  Thus if the first hit, the reset would automatically miss due t change in jactory.  

The Patroit missile system successully intercept between 40 and 70 per cent of the targets they were fired at.  You can read about here, as well as U.S. House Of Representatives Committee on Government Operations testimony.

http://www.cdi.org/issues/bmd/Patriot.html

[GRUNHERZ]

The 10% number was from GW1. Patriot has undergone an enormous amount of digital tech upgrades for anti-missle work since then. So that data from 13 years ago is pointless.

[Gixer]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/patriot-unit.htm   has some good information on Patriot and just about every other military piece of hardware.

They also have alot of excellent powerpoint post operation briefing reports and documents from the different units in the last Gluf War and current operations in Iraq.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/hotdocs.htm

As for the 10% I agree after all the developments it is a much better system. As it shot down a British Toranado quite successfully.


...-Gixer

[GRUNHERZ]

I heard their IFF was not working...

[Masherbrum]

Remember the falsified numbers of dropped SCUD's to the Patriot missile in 91.  

Karaya

[Gixer]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Remember the falsified numbers of dropped SCUD's to the Patriot missile in 91.  

Karaya

True but the point Grunherz was making and rightly so is that today the system has had alot changes since 91. I agree 91 it wasn't all that accurate. A good friend of mine was with the British army and in a radar station part of the SCUD early warning system in Israel at the time of the first Gulf War.

His comment was that it was a good system very capable of taking down aircraft but missed most SCUDS and he couldn't recall a single warhead being taken out. Only the body of the SCUD.

I think today it's a much improved system though any system will fall short when it comes to taking out missiles in flight. Even one as big as a SCUD.

True that the Patriot success in first Gulf war was well over hyped by the media and the military. But even 10% or what ever the figure was is better then nothing.


...-Gixer

[Frogm4n]

a trillion dollar missiles shield will be fool proof against a suitcase bomb!!!!

[weaselsan]

Originally posted by Torque
Hopefully it will be more accurate than the Patriot 10% hit ratio.

Patriot is an anti- aircraft missile, 100% accurate. Placed into service in Gulf war one as a placebo against scud (useless as a flying bathtub) missiles. Still had good hits on them.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by weaselsan
Patriot is an anti- aircraft missile, 100% accurate. Placed into service in Gulf war one as a placebo against scud (useless as a flying bathtub) missiles. Still had good hits on them.

Weaselsan, its not use, he enjoys his "America bashing" too much to argue facts.

[Nefarious]

We all know why Ronnie really wanted SDI

42nd United Nations General Assembly-Sep 21 1987

"In our obsession with antagonisms of the moment, we often forget how much unites all the members of humanity. Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us recognize this common bond. I occasionally think how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside of this world. And yet I ask - is not an alien force already among us?"

Fallston High School Harford County Maryland-Dec 4 1985

I couldn’t help but - when you stop to think that we’re all God’s children, wherever we live in the world, I couldn’t help but say to him (Gorbachev) just how easy his task and mine might be if suddenly there was a threat to this world from some other species from another planet outside in the universe. We’d forget all the little local differences that we have between our countries and we would find out once and for all that we really are all human beings here on this Earth together. Well I guess we can wait for some alien race to come down and threaten us, but I think that between us we can bring about that realization."

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Torque
Hopefully it will be more accurate than the Patriot 10% hit ratio.

10% Patriot vs. Scud intercept ratio is highly overestimated. I bet Patriot is unable to intercept ICBM warheads.

The most difficult part of intercepting ICBMs is target selection. Soviet ICBMs carry huge load of fake targets, decoys and ECM jamming stations. The calculating machines used in ABM systems in Soviet times couldn't be compared to Patriot's "advanced" targeting computer based on 80386. "Elbrus" series were a good match for Crays.

Now - I want to know how many successfull intercepts were performed so far. How many of them were performed in "combat" conditions, including jammers and decoys?

Even if you'll reach 100% intercept ratio (that is next to impossible) - there is already an answer for this so-called "shield". Russian Strategic Missile Corps already tested a new warhead, capable of maneuvering in atmosphere at hyperconic speeds to avoid ABMs.

The whole "national missile defence" is a good support for your military-industrial complex, nothing more.

[midnight Target]

Sorry Boroda, but the REAL reason for our ABM/ Starwars sytem development was to assist the Soviet Union in going broke faster. Looks like it worked pretty well.

[Torque]

Originally posted by weaselsan
Patriot is an anti- aircraft missile, 100% accurate. Placed into service in Gulf war one as a placebo against scud (useless as a flying bathtub) missiles. Still had good hits on them.

Well according to Raytheon it was a little more than just a simple ABM placebo and it was redesigned back in 1984 to be an ABM.

"Patriot is a long-range, high-altitude, all-weather system designed to defeat advanced threats, including aircraft, tactical ballistic missiles, and cruise missiles. Combat proven during Operation Desert Storm,"


Oversight Hearing on the Performance of the Patriot Missile- in the Gulf War," April 7, 1992

"Examination of the new analysis indicates that although improved in clarity and format, the revised assessment continues to suffer from many of the same deficiencies as the original assessment. The Army assessment does not support the overall effectiveness claim or the specific claims of the Scud warheads destroyed. The strongest evidence in the Army assessment indicates that the 158 Patriots fired during the war destroyed a few Scud warheads, although there are doubts about these."

What was that about facts Rip?