Author Topic: Apache Retreat at Karbala  (Read 2575 times)

Offline Yeager

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« on: March 24, 2004, 08:17:55 AM »
Interesting Reading.....
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WASHINGTON -- The only retreat by U.S. forces in their stunningly successful invasion of Iraq last year has sparked a re-examination of the battlefield role of Apache helicopters in the face of fierce criticism that the aircraft is ill-equipped for future wars.

The retreat near Karbala last March 24 ended a strike deep behind enemy lines by 30 Apache Longbow helicopters, part of the Army's 11th Aviation Regiment based in Illesheim, Germany, and Fort Hood's 1st Battalion, 227th Aviation Regiment.

The Boeing helicopters, the most advanced in the U.S. inventory, bristled with high-tech missiles and enemy detection devices, but they were turned back by a barrage of low-tech ground fire.

The failed raid led the Army to change the way Apaches will be used in future conflicts.

Instead of training for strikes deep behind enemy lines, Apache pilots now get drilled more for close-air support of ground troops, and for fighting in urban settings.

New training also stresses more coordination with Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps fighter jets and aerial drones. Such coordination was lacking in the Karbala raid.

Army aviators are now being taught speed and maneuverability, lessons dusted off from the Vietnam era, when choppers also faced a substantial threat from small-arms fire.

On the night of the failed Karbala raid, the Apache crews intended to destroy one of Saddam Hussein's best units, the Republican Guard Medina Division, and to clear a path for the Army's lead ground unit -- the 3rd Infantry Division.

Saddam's forces were positioned near the city of Iskandariyah, 250 miles inside Iraq, just north of Karbala and some 30 miles south of Baghdad.

The 3rd Infantry was pushing north on Day 5 of the war, already in central Iraq and heading toward the Karbala Gap, named for a narrow passage between the city of Karbala and Lake Razzaza.

Shortly after leaving their base, the Apaches, flying at up to 120 mph close to the ground, were ambushed in a blizzard of gunfire and anti-aircraft flak. The pilots of the two-person helicopters halted their advance and pulled into a hover to return fire.

After all 30 Apaches had been raked by Iraqi fire, they broke off the fight and limped back to their desert base. One chopper was forced down, and its pilots -- David Williams and Ronald Young -- were held captive for three weeks.

Army Gen. Barry McCaffrey, a retired commander from Gulf War I, said the failed attack "was nearly a modern day 'Charge of the Light Brigade,'" referring to a Crimean War battle in 1854 in which an English brigade of 600 men suffered devastating losses when charging the Russian army.

The Congressional Research Service, an investigative branch of Congress that conducted an assessment of last year's U.S. invasion, concluded Apache forces that night had come perilously close to "a near disaster."

After the failed raid, Army officials junked plans for most Apache deep-attack missions and instead emphasized armed reconnaissance and close-air support for ground troops.

It was an abrupt shift in strategy. Lt. Gen. William Wallace, who commanded Army operations in Iraq during Gulf War II, said the helicopters "didn't perform the same role that I had envisioned for attack aviation."

The Longbow has a sophisticated fire-control radar system that can track up to 256 targets simultaneously and shoot up to 16 tank-killing Hellfire missiles. The missiles can be fired several miles away from a target so the aircraft doesn't have to fly too close to danger.

In the Karbala raid, commanders ordered pilots to obtain visual identification before attacking enemy positions, reducing some of their technical advantage.

In their counterattack, the Iraqis used rifles and low-tech anti-aircraft weapons, but in a highly organized, sophisticated way.

According to the 3rd Infantry's report on the conduct of the war, the Iraqis had employed "ambush experts" to defeat the Apaches.

Col. William Wolf, the 11th Regiment's commander, said in an interview that enemy forces had hidden anti-aircraft guns in the tree lines and in urban areas. The Iraqis had dramatically improved their ability to target Apaches since Gulf War I, when the choppers earned a reputation as a war horse, destroying hundreds of Iraqi pieces of armor in the open desert.

The new tactics were on full display the night of the raid when the ambushers focused their fire at the exposed flanks and rear of the aircraft, forcing them to pull into a hover so they could find their attackers on the ground and return fire. But the hover mode made the Apaches potentially more vulnerable.

It's this technological disparity between a low-tech enemy and the U.S. Apache force that has critics, even some in the Army, questioning what sort of role the aircraft should play in future conflicts. Enemies are likely to behave as the Iraqis did last spring and exploit the $24 million Longbow's vulnerabilities with swarms of $50 rocket-propelled grenades.

The experience of the Karbala raid loomed large last month when Army leaders terminated the $38 billion Comanche helicopter project. The Comanche was supposed to function alongside the Apache as a deep-strike attacker.

In announcing the termination, Gen. Richard Cody, the Army deputy chief of staff, alluded to Longbow experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan that he said negated the need for the Comanche.

"What we're seeing on the battlefield is (anti-aircraft) weapons systems, and where they're being employed is much more sophisticated in terms of target acquisition," Cody said.

Col. Michael Riley, who assessed the Apache Longbow performance in Iraq for the Army's Training and Doctrine Command, points to numerous successful Apache missions in Iraq after the failed raid.

Within two days of the U.S. retreat, for example, Apache forces had regrouped and changed tactics, he said. An Apache strike by the Army's 101st Airborne Division was successful because the attack included close coordination with artillery strikes and fixed-wing Air Force aircraft that bombed the enemy.

"Pundits look at the failed raid and say, 'Look, Apaches don't work'" on the modern battlefield, Riley said. "But it was an anomaly."

That's also the view of McCaffrey, the retired general, who has studied the Karbala raid.

McCaffrey, who teaches at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, said the assault was doomed from the outset because of poor planning and execution -- and not because of any inherent flaw in the chopper's mission or capabilities.

The Apache pilots, McCaffrey wrote in the Armed Forces Journal, a military trade magazine, "lifted off exhausted, at maximum load conditions, in a single column, to fly at low level over major urban concentrations, under enormous ground fire, to attack deep objectives almost completely unsupported by the joint battle team."

The Army's own post-mortem of the attack revealed Wolf, the 11th Regiment commander, had deviated dramatically from Army doctrine in carrying out the attack by launching his mission without a joint battle team.

That doctrine says attack helicopters should be used alongside other weapons -- primarily artillery and Air Force or Navy fighter/bomber aircraft -- that will soften up and tie down the enemy before the helicopter strike.

But Wolf's Apaches mounted a strike virtually on their own, with no help from those other elements.

"We can't fight as an independent force out there, and that I think was one of the issues with (the raid)," Riley said.

Gulf War I gave the Apache its first opportunity to show its potential as an attack weapon. The Pentagon says the 274 Apaches deployed made an impressive showing in that war, knocking out an estimated 500 tanks along with scores of other vehicles.

Army officials are fiercely protective of the Apache and assert it always will have a role, even if the aircraft drops the deep-strike missions it was designed for.

"Recommend re-addressing attack aviation doctrine," the 3rd Infantry report on Gulf War II concluded, so pilots are better trained for other types of operations "as opposed to deep attack operations."

Brig. Gen. E.J. Sinclair, commander of the Army's aviation center at Fort Rucker, said in an interview that major Apache training changes began immediately after the war.

"To say we are never going to do a deep attack with the Apache is wrong," Sinclair said. "There may be instances where we have to."

On a fast moving battlefield, an Apache squadron may be needed to rapidly confront enemy concentrations 30 to 45 miles behind the front lines.

"Call it whatever you want. But to me that is still deep maneuver," he said.
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Offline ra

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2004, 08:29:12 AM »
It sounds more like bad tactics than a bad helicopter.  Even those Russian flying-tank helicopters probably couldn't have survived good defensive ground fire.

ra

Offline Ripsnort

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2004, 08:30:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
It sounds more like bad tactics than a bad helicopter.  Even those Russian flying-tank helicopters probably couldn't have survived good defensive ground fire.

ra


There were anti-aircraft guns involved.

Offline Nilsen

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2004, 08:42:50 AM »
Anyone suprised by this?

Its war and stuff gets damaged. Not even american hardware is bulletproof.

I saw a 3 or 4 hour documentary on Discovery channel called "the road to bagdad" or something. The american soldiers where suprised that the republican guard put up a good fight and that rpg's could penetrate their bradleys and armoured vehicles. They were aparently told by their top brass that it would be a "walk in the park".

I was actually very suprised that american soldiers had such a low opinion of their enemys and though their own equipent was so superior that they could go through the war without taking casualties. I do realise that some of those making these statements were 18 year olds but still..

Offline gofaster

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2004, 08:48:26 AM »
Quote
The pilots of the two-person helicopters halted their advance and pulled into a hover to return fire.

Quote
The new tactics were on full display the night of the raid when the ambushers focused their fire at the exposed flanks and rear of the aircraft, forcing them to pull into a hover so they could find their attackers on the ground and return fire. But the hover mode made the Apaches potentially more vulnerable.


I always thought speed and maneuverability were the chief weapons of fighting aircraft.  I would think the rear would be well armoured.

Offline Saurdaukar

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2004, 08:54:15 AM »
Had all the choppers been forced down, perhaps it would be time to cry 'bad aircraft' but since they were simply forced back, in the face of what the articles says was 'devastating fire' I think its a testament to the toughness of the aircraft.

That, however, doesnt make people buy newspapers.

Offline lasersailor184

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2004, 08:59:12 AM »
Hehe Saur, where's all the death?




But anyway, (no offense to the army here), but the army has never really been known for employing brilliant tactics.  


Lets see.  I'm getting shot at.  I'm going to stop and hover in the air.  


That's sort of like stopping in the middle of a street in a gun fight and taking some time to aim.
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Offline Saurdaukar

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2004, 09:07:03 AM »
You could be right.  Lets just give the Army birds to the Marines - they'll figure em out in 15 minutes and start killing ****.  ;)

Offline midnight Target

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2004, 09:20:02 AM »
I work across from March ARB. The old base housing unit has been converted to an urban warfare training center. Yesterday about 1 mile south of our parking lot, 4 Apaches and what looked like a Huey were circling and diving and basically running what looked like mock attacks. Very fun to watch.

Offline Pongo

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2004, 10:17:26 AM »
It is cool to see that they are honestly looking at the engagment, but honestly. It sounds like the commander on the ground set that one up to fail.
Am I correct that not a single american died in that engagment..wonder how many dead Iraqis there were...

Offline Gunslinger

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2004, 10:23:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
You could be right.  Lets just give the Army birds to the Marines - they'll figure em out in 15 minutes and start killing ****.  ;)



sounds exactly like what happend with the cobra lol.

Offline Mickey1992

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2004, 10:36:40 AM »
Seems like poor mission planning and poor execution.

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The experience of the Apache crews at Karbala stands in contrast to the US Marine Corps AH-1W SuperCobras. The Marine Cobras were used intensively in the close support role in what was always a high-risk environment. None were lost to enemy action and they were highly praised by the US and British Commanders who tasked them. The Cobras, armed with Hellfires as well as TOW missiles, never stayed still over Iraq – in fact they speeded up.

The US Army's OH-58D Kiowa Warriors had a similar approach. As one experienced pilot said: "It is all about training and adapting to your environment. You'll never catch me hovering. If you want to stay alive, you've got to keep moving."

http://www.janes.com/aerospace/military/news/jir/jir030626_1_n.shtml

Offline Dinger

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2004, 11:30:45 AM »
the problem with the "poor planning" argument -- and I have no doubt there was poor planning -- is that the army had been planning a test to validate the "deep attack" tactic for some time. A lot of decisions going into the Longbow were made with deep attack in mind; of course, the original decisions were probably made with an eye to the hills and forests of central Europe, where a helo's being spotted would coincide with its being shot down. They even made "deep attack" artillery: US MLRS launchers are made capable of firing TACMS -- a medium range tactical missile (range is something like up to 165 km, cost is between .5 and 1.5 mil, depending on stuff like whether they carry some form of DPICM or BATs) called in by the deep attack force. The Comanche was going to be the icing on the cake.

The Karbala ambush was the Army's first really good shot at demonstrating this concept. On paper it looked good: A daring raid at maximum range early in the war, to smash the Iraqi army's best armored division. If they pulled this off, "deep attack" would be validated, the leaders would all get handsome promotions and funding would be assured, giving them bigger commands and the army some prestige. Calling in air power, which was heavily tasked elsewhere anyway, would be unnecessary and would confuse the message of the deep attack's viability.

The problem was, of course, that "deep attack" means flying over hostile territory before and after the strike, hence the opportunity for ambush. Moreover, the Iraqis knew the Army was going to try something like this.
A squaddie saw the episode of "Frontline" where they dealt with the mission in detail. Evidently, the Iraqis had observers with celphones who called when the helos took off.  They then cut the power to the city in question, and sent everybody to the rooftops.  When the helos were overhead, they turned the power on and started shooting.

It was a pretty good ambush. I'd like to see some of the recordings of that incident; I wonder how much of the "hover" statement is true.
More important to me is the formation.  Travelling in column (idiotenreihe), once they're ambushed, maneuver becomes pretty difficult.

Anyway, when the comanche project was finally cancelled, I said this raid is what killed it.

The whole thing would make a pretty good book.

Offline FUNKED1

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2004, 11:37:41 AM »
I blame Bush.

Offline muckmaw

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Apache Retreat at Karbala
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2004, 11:43:06 AM »
Why would you use a helicopter for deep interdiction/strike missions anyway?

Why not just use an A-10 or F-15E or Panavia Tornado?

The sheer nature of a helicopter's design makes it much more vulnerable than fixed wing.