What if it happened this way?

[AKcurly]

In reading the "WTG Israel" thread by Eagler, it's obvious that many Europeans are sympathetic to the Palestinians.

What if Hamas had managed to assassinate someone important in the Israeli government.  Would you (sympathetic Europeans) post a "WTG Palestinians"?

Nah, I don't think so.

So, that asks the obvious question.  Are you (sympathetic Europeans) offended by the glee exhibited by the death of Yassin?  

If you find the glee offensive, why aren't you offended by suicide bombers killing children?

Don't you think (for Americans anyway) there's a connection?  Anyone who deliberately kills children stops outside the pale of humanity -- they become something which should be killed.  So yes, when you kill such an animal, it's a gift.

Hamas had a stated policy of killing by suicide bombers.  Yassin was the head of Hamas.  Ergo ...

curly

[straffo]

I'm european too and I don't see anything bad in Yassin killing.

I just think it's bad tactic as it's either to much killing or not enought.


Again it's will make the emergence of a moderate palestinian party a no go.

[_Schadenfreude_]

To many in Europe there seems to be little difference between the Palestinian Terror Groups - Hamas et al - and the current Israeli Government.

Israel once seen as a Democratic defender of human rights has had a 20 year slide into if not exactly a neo-fascist government then at least one similar to the apartheid regime of South Africa.

One side kills with suicide bombers, the other kills with sophisticated military hardware purchased on credit from the USA.

Sharon started this cycle of violence in 1982 with the killings in the refugee camps during the Lebanon invasion - he provoked the 2nd Intifada by a provocative visit to the Dome of the Rock. He wanted chaos to ensue so that his party would gain control of the Knesset.

He's like an old war dog who served his country well in '48 and '56, in '67 and in '73 but cannot seem to realise that to have peace you have to sit down with your enemies and make it happen - no matter how hard it is.

America and the Middle East would be better served by treating all players even handedly rather than allowing itself to be manipulated by Israel through lobbyists who have only the interests of Israel in mind and not those of USA.

[lord dolf vader]

yep thats about it.

[Pei]

Originally posted by AKcurly
In reading the "WTG Israel" thread by Eagler, it's obvious that many Europeans are sympathetic to the Palestinians.

What if Hamas had managed to assassinate someone important in the Israeli government.  Would you (sympathetic Europeans) post a "WTG Palestinians"?

Nah, I don't think so.

 

I don't think many people who post on these boards would like to see Hamas assassinate anyone.
From your point of view Europe is biased against Israel. From our point of view the US is biased towards Israel. I'm not going to debate who's right and who's wrong. I think most people in Europe and American can agree that terrorism and murder is wrong.  Many people disagree over how to combat terrorism.  Exaggerating our differences to the point of causing offence achieves nothing.

[AKcurly]

I must say I agree with everything that each of you said.

But, the deliberate targeting of children really raises my hackles.


curly

[Thud]

Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
To many in Europe there seems to be little difference between the Palestinian Terror Groups - Hamas et al - and the current Israeli Government.

Israel once seen as a Democratic defender of human rights has had a 20 year slide into if not exactly a neo-fascist government then at least one similar to the apartheid regime of South Africa.

One side kills with suicide bombers, the other kills with sophisticated military hardware purchased on credit from the USA.

Sharon started this cycle of violence in 1982 with the killings in the refugee camps during the Lebanon invasion - he provoked the 2nd Intifada by a provocative visit to the Dome of the Rock. He wanted chaos to ensue so that his party would gain control of the Knesset.

He's like an old war dog who served his country well in '48 and '56, in '67 and in '73 but cannot seem to realise that to have peace you have to sit down with your enemies and make it happen - no matter how hard it is.

America and the Middle East would be better served by treating all players even handedly rather than allowing itself to be manipulated by Israel through lobbyists who have only the interests of Israel in mind and not those of USA.

Excellent.

[AKWeav]

cannot seem to realise that to have peace you have to sit down with your enemies and make it happen - no matter how hard it is.

Even if your enemy's idea of peace is the complete erradication of your country and it's people?

[CyranoAH]

AKWeav, just for the sake of argument. If you saved your worst enemy's whole family (an enemy that wants to kill you) from a certain death, don't you think his opinion about you may change just a tiny little bit?

Of course this is a perfect scenario, but if both parts are willing to talk, things can improve.

Daniel

[lasersailor184]

Sharon started this cycle of violence in 1982 with the killings in the refugee camps during the Lebanon invasion - he provoked the 2nd Intifada by a provocative visit to the Dome of the Rock. He wanted chaos to ensue so that his party would gain control of the Knesset.

Actually, it was the lebanese who did the killing.  But as long as you tell them that Sharon did it, they won't even question it.

[Ripsnort]

Me thinks Euro's are subject to what they see on the news, without knowing what type of media manipulation that terrorists purposely do to gain sympathy in their behalf:

Ordinary people watching the evening news now routinely see pictures of Israeli reprisals against "refugee camps." What they are not told is that these camps are the constructed sources and seedbeds of anti-Israel terrorism, and that the deliberate PLO/PA use of these camps for such criminal purpose is an example of "perfidy" in international law. In the case of calculated Palestinian placement of Arab civilians in harm's way, it is a crime that assigns full legal responsibility for Palestinian losses with the PLO and Palestinian Authority.

The PLO/PA practice of intentionally placing its terrorist forces and assets in the midst of civilian populations is unequivocally a war crime. Although it is certainly true that the Law of War is designed to protect all noncombatants from armed attack, this authoritative body of rules also makes it perfectly clear that responsibility for civilian harms must ultimately rest with the side that engages in perfidy. When IDF infantry from the Golani and Paratrooper brigades, in coordination with armored units, head into the Jenin and Balata camps to root out would-be Palestinian suicide bombers, full responsibility for resultant civilian casualties rests with Yassir Arafat.

[Eagler]

I think there is still a supported undercurrent from the 30's and 40's still flowing through Europe

like someone stated, all the pals would have to do is pull a Gandhi, stop the crazy suicide bombrs and the world would fall all over them and they'd get what they wanted in years instead of decades/never. The US, if needed,  would force Israel to agree as it would not/could not look like a Gandhi killer

but in the meantime, many, too many are secretly happy when jews of all ages are slaughtered j as in the 30 & 40's.

[_Schadenfreude_]

Originally posted by AKWeav
Even if your enemy's idea of peace is the complete erradication of your country and it's people?

Are you talking of Israel's wish to eradicate the Palestinian people or the Palestinians wish to eradicate the State of Israel?

I would say that the Israel as the military power in the M/E stands little chance of being eradicated by the stateless Palestinian mass.

To illustrate the point of what is possible in South Africa after 80 years of subjugation, acts of terror and torture from both sides, of government assasination squads and bombs in stations and supermarkets the two sides decided that it was better to have peace than never ending low intensity war.

It was extremely hard for both sides to accept the view of the other, to embrace enemies and stop killing, fortunately due to the actions of Mandela and De Klerk - both Nobel Peace Prize winners - the war ended.

Israel needs grasp that nettle as it did with the Camp David Accord and obtain peace by any means - as it did with Egypt.

If an Israeli government can have peace with an enemy such as Egypt after 3 wars then they make peace with the Palestinians - who are after all Israeli too - they came along with the land captured during 1967.

Look forward to another 10 years of killing - each atrocity worse as each side seeks "revenge" for the last action of the other.

Stupid waste......

[Thud]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Actually, it was the lebanese who did the killing.  But as long as you tell them that Sharon did it, they won't even question it.

It were the Israelis who purposely allowed the Christian militias entrance to the camps, all too aware what would happen.
Were the SS'ers who guarded the concentration camps less responsible than those who operated the chambers and furnaces?
In the history of the Middle East there are many issues debatable to say the least, this is not one of them however...

[_Schadenfreude_]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Actually, it was the lebanese who did the killing.  But as long as you tell them that Sharon did it, they won't even question it.

Sharon was indicted for war crimes by an international court in the Hague - I look forward to his first visit to the EU where hopefully he will be called to account for his actions.

Being Jewish and being part of a race or group that suffered terrible persecution does NOT give carte blanche to do the same to others.