Author Topic: Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane  (Read 618 times)

Offline Lazerus

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Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane
« on: March 27, 2004, 08:35:31 PM »
Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane

Does anyone know what, if any, abandonment laws are in effect for aircraft? I can't believe they're asking him to pay for the cost of returning it after he dug it out of a swamp:eek:

Offline LAWCobra

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Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2004, 10:15:49 PM »
Don't the government have more important things to be doind?
Geez:rolleyes:

Offline Tarmac

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Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2004, 11:59:32 PM »
If the government wins, the guy should put the plane right back where he found it -- in the swamp.

Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2004, 12:08:54 AM »
It's a long running issue and he's not the first to fall foul of of Navy's bloodymindedness. According to Admiralty law the Navy still owns all sunken and crashed Navy aircraft and ship (including Confederate wrecks).  There are dozens if not  hundreds of potentially flyable US Navy WW2 aircraft at the bottom of the great lakes, some veterans of Midway that cannot be brought to the surface because the Navy will immediately claim them and demand damages.  F4F. TBD's, TBM's FU's. F6F's etc all sitting there rotting quietly.
It's really quite disgraceful. The USAF has a much more realistic policy. Anything lost before 1968 can be salvaged quite freely.

Anyone attempting to bring up US Navy aircraft will immediately feel the full wrath of their bureaucracy.  One guy had to hand over a plane to the  museum in Pensacola AND  pay court costs.

Offline Dago

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Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2004, 04:45:32 PM »
Quote
Dick Phillips, a retired Northwest Airlines executive from suburban Burnsville


LOL, I know this guy, he is a retired baggage handler who spent the last few years at NWA in the recycling department.

He is more an airplane wannabee guy than some kind of expert.

dago
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Offline gofaster

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Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2004, 09:00:05 AM »
The Navy isn't completely heartless.  At least they made an offer.
Quote
Cralley said the government contacted him about five years ago to see about getting the plane back, and suggested an exchange with the National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, Fla.


The value of a Brewster-built Corsair is based on its historical significance.  If Cralley wants a Corsair hulk, I'm sure the NMNA could hook him up with one.

Of course, the Navy's policy of retaining ownership of old airplanes is one of the reasons there are more Mustangs on the air show circuit than there are Corsairs and Hellcats.

Offline bpti

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Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2004, 09:31:50 AM »
navy is a bunch of pedes
that they dared to sue this man makes me really mad.
cheap bastards.

Offline Soulyss

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Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2004, 10:33:58 AM »
What brought about this policy on the Navy's part?  What's their reasoning behind it?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2004, 10:37:12 AM by Soulyss »
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Offline Fishu

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Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2004, 11:53:13 AM »
Pity all those beautiful planes rotting around due to stupid Navy policies :(

Offline Red Tail 444

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Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2004, 11:55:57 AM »
I'd like to contact this guy. Theres a few guys up here with more than a passing interest in WW 2 restoration.

Thanks for the post.

Offline Red Tail 444

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Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2004, 12:00:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
LOL, I know this guy, he is a retired baggage handler who spent the last few years at NWA in the recycling department.

He is more an airplane wannabee guy than some kind of expert.

dago


hehe....who isint? :)

Offline Lazerus

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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2004, 11:12:38 PM »
I'm just a schmuck as far as the real guys in WWII restoration go. But......i hate to see anything pushed down. Why a guy cant rescue a swamp ridden wreck is beyond me. Any government guys in here that can elaborate?

Offline Octavius

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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2004, 11:35:06 PM »
I would kill for a restored Corsair.  I will own one in my lifetime... damnit.

Quote
Of course, the Navy's policy of retaining ownership of old airplanes is one of the reasons there are more Mustangs on the air show circuit than there are Corsairs and Hellcats.
[/b]

Good point.  

I'd like to know the reasoning behind this policy as well.  I mean, who would actually object to seeing more Corsairs and Hellkittens at airshows?
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Offline bigsky

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Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2004, 11:38:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
I'm just a schmuck as far as the real guys in WWII restoration go. But......i hate to see anything pushed down. Why a guy cant rescue a swamp ridden wreck is beyond me. Any government guys in here that can elaborate?

i'd say they dont want precedence. lets say they let him have it, then someone would try and loot the Arizona or other even older wrecks. then in court they would have to explain why one is o.k. and the other is not. i remember a salvager found a wreck that sunk carrying a bunch of caifornia gold. a insurance company sued the salvager because they paid the claim back in the 1800's
i always thought that if it was under water for 30 days it was salvagable.
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Offline gofaster

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Navy Sues Civilian for Return of Plane
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2004, 08:16:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Soulyss
What brought about this policy on the Navy's part?  What's their reasoning behind it?


Clive Cussler, Barrett Tillman, and a guy who does Pacific warbird archeological expeditions have written about this a number of times regarding ships and aircraft of historical significance that have been found but not salvaged.

In one instance, a salvager found a rare F3F Grumman biplane fighter nearly intact off the California coast.  They contacted the Navy for permission to recover the plane but the Navy refused, citing the fact that the USN retains ownership no matter how long the equipment has been submerged.  The Navy then sent a team of divers down to recover it themselves but because of conditions they had to abort.  

Some time afterwards the Navy either sold or surrendered claim to the aircraft and the salvager went back to recover.  When they got there, the aircraft had been entangled in fishing nets and nearly destroyed, making a recovery effort unprofitable.  I'm not sure if they brought it up or not.

Cussler ran afoul of the Navy in his Hunley project (he was just interested in finding the sub; another group was going to bring it up).  As mentioned before, the USN retains ownership of Confederate warships.  The stickler was that there is some argument as to whether the Hunley was a true Confederate warship or a privately-funded ship crewed by Confederate sailors.  The Navy was strongly interested in retaining ownership of the Hunley because of its historical value - it would be quite a feather in the Navy Museum's cap!  IIRC, the matter went to court and it was determined that the Hunley was a private venture and therefore the USN had no claim.  The Hunley is currently sitting in a laboratory in Charleston, S.C., and is available for viewing on weekends.  When the archeological study is completed it will be placed on regular display.

The Navy's motivation for retaining ownership is many-fold, but the key factor is the historical significance.  Mostly, the Navy is reluctant to give up something it might find useful down the road, such as the wreck of the USS Monitor, or the USS Yorktown, or the USS Arizona, or any of the various aircraft scattered around the oceans and swamps of the world.  The Navy sees these things as resources, property that can be either sold or recovered (eventually) by Navy teams and placed in a Navy museum.  Unfortunately, the Navy is in no hurry to go get them as they have other projects on the plate, such as drug interdiction and fighting the war on terrorism.

On the other hand, the Air Force realizes the significance of time, and that the longer something is left to rot, the less of it there will be to recover and restore.  The Air Force knows it can get some free publicity every time a privately-restored Mustang shows up at an Air Show for a Heritage Flight.  That's why the USAF is more than happy to surrender claim to an old airplane if the person asking for it can prove he/she has the resources to restore it and display it.

Most of the Corsairs flying around today were ones either purchased as hulks from the Navy or are aircraft that the USN sold to other governments and those governmenst sold at auction to private buyers.  Or copied from other Corsairs undergoing restoration.  You have a better chance at getting a Honduran Corsair than you do with a USN Corsair.