Author Topic: Prop Engines... (Read 1632 times)

Cobra412 · « **on:** March 28, 2004, 04:22:37 AM »

This is only one other thing I have to ask about. Is this suppose to be a simulator or a gamey game. I know with some of the newer folks an indepth flight model would be overwhelming. But even some of our seasoned veterans use gaminess( doubt that is a word) whenever they can, specifically the engine modeling.

How often is it or has it been documented that a WWII fighter pilot turned off his engines during combat purposely to gain an advantage? I highly doubt there is any but in AH many pilots use this to there advantage. Instead of using ACM to avoid an over shoot they shut there engine down. This is infact very gamey not only to myself but I'm sure alot of others.

To avoid this gaminess is it possible to model engine no starts in some way or another. We have almost every other scenario that can cause an engine to shut down. What about adding something to counter this in some way or another. This goes beyond just chopping throttles and controlling your energy to the target. Even a very slow moving target can use this to there advantage.

How about modeling random no starts while in flight if in the event the engine is shutdown. This random no start should not affect the user that forgets to switch his/her tanks and runs out of fuel killing the engine. This should only affect those who specifically push there E button to kill the engine during flight. Not sure if there should be anything else to consider on this but it is rather gamey and unfortunate folks would rather learn this than how to actually use ACM.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 28, 2004, 03:46:21 PM »

You do realize that shutting off your engine is a last ditch effort and puts you at an extreme disadvantage?

If you overshoot, just nose up and gain some altitude. He's the one who's burning energy like a Hippy burning a flag at an Anti something rally.

BenDover · « **Reply #2 on:** March 28, 2004, 04:01:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lasersailor184
If you overshoot, just nose up and gain some altitude. He's the one who's burning energy like a Hippy burning a flag at an Anti something rally.

LOL!!

Cobra412 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 28, 2004, 04:44:03 PM »

Laser if you have already expected them to try to force an overshoot your going to back down too to saddle up. Therefore you will also be slow and in very close proximity. Hammering the throttle back and using rudders to saddle up just isn't enough when someone games the game like this.

Unlike others who will use realistic maneuvering, they wouldn't always have the chance of counter such an attack. One can expect certain number of possible outcomes if the contact tries to maneuver out and with that you would be able to counter enough to stay in the contacts rear hemisphere. This is ofcourse assuming the contact isn't going to do a gamey move like shut off their engine to force an over shoot.

By killing your engines your almost guaranteed to change roles and be on the giving side instead of the receiving side with no effort or skill involved. With the Quake attitude of many pilots this tactic doesn't seem to phase them much as being gamey. Granted you can back off earlier to keep this from happening to some extent.

Against another agile fighter doing this could mean you would keep from overshooting but you at the same time are allowing too much maneuvering room for them. They could then turn the tables on you because you had to be too cautious of running into a Quake pilot. Force a high deflection and reverse the fight into a flat scissors where they would have then advantage.

Theres a fine line between knowing when to shut it down(backing off the throttles) to stay saddled up against any particular fighter and their maneuvering capabilities as compared to when to shut down in the event your fighting a Quake pilot. Shutting the engine down is a way for them to compensate for lack of ACM knowledge pure and simple. If they are that desperate that they need to shut the engine off then they already screwed up in the situation they were presented with in the first place.

Ofcourse, opposed to looking deeper into the situation with some common sense and reasoning some will only present their witty comments and show sympathy for someone who do such a tactic and say it's a "last ditch effort".

Delirium · « **Reply #4 on:** March 28, 2004, 05:13:04 PM »

I know they did it quite a bit in WWI, it was called 'bliping' but was dangerous due to the chance of fire. I can't recall any cycling of the engines in WWII unless it was a multi-engine plane because of battle damage.

Wilbus · « **Reply #5 on:** March 29, 2004, 03:34:22 AM »

Let the people who want to shut down their engines do it. There is no difference flying-wise between shutting down your engine and chopping the throttle. If anything, you lose MORE E by chopping the throttle as some planes have automatic prop stop (if the prop stop the plane will lose less E then if the prop goes idle and is turned around by the wind).

Using throttle to cause an overshoot can be a good tactic.

dedalos · « **Reply #6 on:** March 29, 2004, 10:00:40 AM »

Hmm, did someone get shot down last night?

Cobra412 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 29, 2004, 08:07:53 PM »

Wilbus that is the whole point. Folks are using the engine shut down to slow down extremely quick when someone is coming in to force the over shoot. Whether or not the get shots off after really doesn't mean anything, it's the fact they are gaming the game because they lack the skills to use ACM to avoid the oncoming bogey. Whats the point of us learning to fly our aircraft to the extreme and learning when and when not to do things? I don't have a problem if they use there throttles or surfaces to slow down quickly because it's realistic.

Dedalos frankly with your comments it sounds as if your the type to game the game aswell. Don't have anything worth while to add other than your witty comments your more than welcome to run along and play with your barbies.

Wilbus · « **Reply #8 on:** March 30, 2004, 03:11:36 AM »

The Fact is Cobra, you slow down quicker by cutting throttle then when killing engine due to the fact that when throttle is cut, your prop is windmilling (turning due to windspeed) while if you kill the engine the prop (on most planes) is stopped and thus you lose less E and slowing down takes longer.

Those who kill their engines don't quite know what they are doing and they are both easier to stay behind and easier to kill then those who cut throttle.

BenDover · « **Reply #9 on:** March 30, 2004, 08:02:31 AM »

Are you completly, 100% SURE that that is the way it works in *AH*

Wilbus · « **Reply #10 on:** March 30, 2004, 08:09:13 AM »

Almost BenDover, try it, fly idle throttle, RPM set to full (RPM is always set to full even if you idle the throttle UNLESS you manually lower the RPM which takes a few seconds). Try and glide near the ground, see how long you stay up or how far you go.

Do the same with the engine shut down (in a plane that stop the prop from spinning).

All props work as thrust (most props are "pulling" the plane, there are some that pushes the plane aswell). BUT All props also work as a breaking force, when the speed gets too high the breaking force is bigger then the pulling force which is the reason prop planes can't go supersonic.

Like I said, try it, you will notice that you glide far longer with RPM set low or engine killed then with engine on idle and RPM high.

dedalos · « **Reply #11 on:** March 30, 2004, 10:53:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Cobra412
Wilbus that is the whole point. Folks are using the engine shut down to slow down extremely quick when someone is coming in to force the over shoot. Whether or not the get shots off after really doesn't mean anything, it's the fact they are gaming the game because they lack the skills to use ACM to avoid the oncoming bogey. Whats the point of us learning to fly our aircraft to the extreme and learning when and when not to do things? I don't have a problem if they use there throttles or surfaces to slow down quickly because it's realistic.

Dedalos frankly with your comments it sounds as if your the type to game the game aswell. Don't have anything worth while to add other than your witty comments your more than welcome to run along and play with your barbies.

Yep, thats me. Gamming the game. Frankly, I never had anyone cut the engine to force an overshoot. If any body tryies that, they should be dead on the second pass. So, your pure flying got you killed. Big deal. Was the first time? Use your superior acm to avoid the overshoot. Maybe when I am done with my barbies I will show you how. Till then, quit whining please.

Cobra412 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 30, 2004, 02:07:17 PM »

Actually Dedalos I didn't get killed by it..I've only been killed once by that when Lazerus did it when I had only been flying for less than a month. I witnessed 102Jish doing it against a Bish. I change up my tactics on each and every pass. I don't always just BnZ from different angles. When I see how they are gonna react if I haven't killed them on the first pass or even the second I base my next engagement on that. Majority of the time saddling up when they least expect it. This is where I hide my real energy state enough to saddle up within D100 to D150 or less. With it being that close someone killing there engine is just enough to force an overshoot.

And not every aircraft windmills in Ah after the Engine is shutdown. I guess that fine line I talked about isn't clear enough. I'm not always the best with explaning things. I'll have to test it and see how much the real difference in the speed decrease by engine cut off or by pure throttle chopped back.

humble · « **Reply #13 on:** March 30, 2004, 02:34:58 PM »

I cant see how this creates any advantage...chopping throttle 100% will do same as cutting engine out. I'd say it's a response to others "gaming the game" by turning sound all down so they can hear other guys engine...

I'm not an engine wiz...but the airstream over prop would make restarts easy I'd think.

dedalos · « **Reply #14 on:** March 30, 2004, 03:06:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Cobra412
Actually Dedalos I didn't get killed by it..I've only been killed once by that when Lazerus did it when I had only been flying for less than a month. I witnessed 102Jish doing it against a Bish. I change up my tactics on each and every pass. I don't always just BnZ from different angles. When I see how they are gonna react if I haven't killed them on the first pass or even the second I base my next engagement on that. Majority of the time saddling up when they least expect it. This is where I hide my real energy state enough to saddle up within D100 to D150 or less. With it being that close someone killing there engine is just enough to force an overshoot.

And not every aircraft windmills in Ah after the Engine is shutdown. I guess that fine line I talked about isn't clear enough. I'm not always the best with explaning things. I'll have to test it and see how much the real difference in the speed decrease by engine cut off or by pure throttle chopped back.

I honestly don;t think the guy got eny advantage from that. This is what makes the game fun. You don;t know how the other guy is going to react when you get on his six. If you got a kill every single time it would be boring. Honestly, how many times do you think someone tried that trick on you? I thought it was funny cause HT does not do anything about real probs. Do you really think they will do something about that?