Author Topic: Gas Prices?  (Read 376 times)

Offline Lazerus

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Gas Prices?
« on: March 30, 2004, 11:39:25 PM »
Cut and Paste again

"A couple of weeks ago, heading down to George Mason University, I pulled into my favorite Wawa gasoline station just off the Bel Air, Md., exit on I-95 South. At each of the 20 gasoline pumps, there was a sign posted that Wawa would no longer dispense free coffee to its gasoline customers. Why? The station was warned that dispensing free coffee put it in violation of Maryland’s gasoline minimum-price law.

Here’s my no-brainer question to you: Do you suppose that Maryland enacted its gasoline minimum-price law because irate customers complained to the state legislature that gasoline prices were too low? Even if you had just 1 ounce of brains, you’d correctly answer no. Then, the next question is just whose interest is served by, and just who lobbied for, Maryland’s gasoline minimum-price law? If you answered that it was probably Maryland’s independent gas-station owners, go to the head of the class.

Let’s first establish a general economic principle. Whenever one sees statutory or quasi-statutory minimum prices, he is looking at a seller collusion against customers in general as well as against particular sellers, those who are seen as charging too low a price. This economic principle applies whether you’re talking about minimum wages, minimum dairy prices or minimum real-estate sales commissions. Members of a seller collusion call for statutory and quasi-statutory minimum prices so they can charge customers higher prices than they could otherwise in the absence of a statutory minimum.

You say, "Williams, that’s preposterous; how can they sell legislators on the idea? After all, buyers of gasoline are more numerous than sellers of gasoline." To answer that question, you have to recognize a couple of other facts. First, legislators aren’t known for being rocket scientists. Secondly, legislators love campaign contributions, and satisfying the interests of lobbyists is more important to their political careers than serving the interests of consumers in general.

Lobbyists such as WMDA Service Station & Automotive Repair Association, the Gasoline Retailers Association and the Petroleum Marketers Association of America are able to sell legislators on the fairy tale that if high-marketing gasoline outlets such as Wawa, Sheetz, Wal-Mart and others are allowed to charge prices that are too low, they’ll drive all other gasoline stations out of business. Having done so, these high-marketing outlets could charge any price they pleased and make huge profits.

In economics, we call this strategy predatory pricing. It’s an argument that has a ring of plausibility, but there’s little evidence anywhere anytime that a predatory pricing scheme produced results even remotely close to what would-be predators envisioned. Questioning this fairy tale and asking for evidence would never cross the mind of a legislator.

Another reason legislators can get away with establishing these minimum-price laws has to do with another economic phenomenon called "narrow well-defined benefits and small widely dispersed costs." The beneficiaries of the gasoline seller collusion are relatively few in number and well organized. The victims, mainly gasoline customers, are difficult to organize, and the costs they bear are relatively small and widespread.

In other words, how many gasoline consumers would be willing to spend their time and energy fighting to unseat a legislator whose actions imposed, say, a nickel a gallon additional cost upon them? It’s cheaper just to pay the nickel a gallon more and forget about it, but that’s not true about gasoline retailers. It is worth their time and energy to pressure legislators for minimum-price laws, and politicians know this.

Maryland is not the only state with statutory minimum gasoline prices. It’s joined by 12 other states, including New York, Michigan and Wisconsin. Wisconsin legislators have the gall to call its government-sponsored seller collusion the "Unfair Sales Act.""

Offline Lazerus

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Gas Prices?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2004, 11:41:18 PM »

Offline gofaster

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Gas Prices?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2004, 08:09:40 AM »
I wonder if Florida is part of this phenomenon.  All I know is that 89 octane is getting to be $2.00 a gallon.  :mad:

On the upside, my property values are going up because people don't want the long commute times and mileage, so homes in my area are becoming more attractive.  :)

Offline mosgood

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« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2004, 08:14:11 AM »
The news is saying that OPEC just announced they are cutting production by 4%.

Saudi Arabia is the most influencial member... isn't it obvious what those mf'ers are about by now?

Offline nuchpatrick

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Gas Prices?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2004, 08:37:17 AM »
Heck Go.. it's at 2.00 near the attraction's.  I'm pay'n between 1.80-1.97 for 93 as it stands now. At least I get decent gas mileage but jeezz..  This summer is going to suck.

Offline Mickey1992

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Re: Gas Prices?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2004, 09:04:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
In economics, we call this strategy predatory pricing. It’s an argument that has a ring of plausibility, but there’s little evidence anywhere anytime that a predatory pricing scheme produced results even remotely close to what would-be predators envisioned. Questioning this fairy tale and asking for evidence would never cross the mind of a legislator.


BS.  Wal-Mart does it all the time and has repeatedly been caught and fined for it.

Offline Curval

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Gas Prices?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2004, 09:06:32 AM »
Wait...what happened to all that cheap oil that the US was fighting for in Iraq?
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2004, 09:09:39 AM »
This is an interesting debate within the gasoline retailing industry. Some newer "non-traditional" gasoline retailers like Wal-Mart  use gasoline as a loss leader for store sales and store volume, and sell gasoline at or below wholesale gasoline market costs. High volume retailers like Wawa generally sell at close to market wholesale costs due to high volumes and (as with the "hypermarkets" and supermarkets) a focus more on store sales.

Obviously, a major focus among traditional retailer (particularly smaller ones) is survival, and they claim the competition is unfair (below cost selling/gasoline as a loss leader). However, they do make a point worth considering, that once such outlets drive sufficient competition out of business in the local markets ""minimum" pricing will no longer be an issue for the consumer. Prices will be higher in the long-term and availability less, particularly in rural markets.

It doesn't help that the gasoline margin is generally disappearing as a profit generator (maybe 8 cents/gallon down to zero in many markets), or that "big oil" no longer has any use for the smaller, low volume "mom and pop" dealers that helped make them what they are today. It's not uncommon for a company run site (although few in number, they have the premium locations) to sell gasoline on the street for lower than a nearby branded dealer can buy gasoline from the same company at the wholesale rack.
 
IMO, and I've put this in print, such legislation is short-sighted, politically and publicly unpopular, and delays more progressive changes in a company's business model. There are plenty of petroleum retailers who agree and who are making significant investments to make money on everything but gasoline.

One thing to keep in mind too, as gasoline prices creep up. The higher the price on the street, the less margin the person actually selling it to consumers generally makes. The wholesale costs skyrocket as well, and as noted company stores and hypermarkets prevent a great deal of that pass-along to the consumer. Most of the money is raked in upstream with the absolute most profit at the exploration and production levels.

Charon
« Last Edit: March 31, 2004, 09:11:43 AM by Charon »

Offline Charon

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Gas Prices?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2004, 09:19:44 AM »
Quote
Saudi Arabia is the most influencial member... isn't it obvious what those mf'ers are about by now?


Yes, they're about making the maximum amount of money they can, while not pricing too high to cut demand significantly. Just like the major oil companies they partner with downstream in a global economy :) I don't think the "pain point" where gasoline prices are concerned has been reached yet, given SUV sales etc.

The one thing probably holding back a greater use of oil as a political weapon is that it tends to hurt the supplier as much as it hurts the target. Much higher prices = a reduction in demand and a shift to other sources of supply. Also, Saudi would have to impact the global economy in general to specifically hurt the US, which is not in the best interests of the current rulers. Should a fundamentalist faction manage to gain control of the Saudi oil supply that might not be the case.

Charon
« Last Edit: March 31, 2004, 09:49:43 AM by Charon »

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2004, 09:24:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
Wait...what happened to all that cheap oil that the US was fighting for in Iraq?


"BLOOD FOR OIL!"[/COLOR]

:rofl :rofl :rofl

Offline gofaster

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Gas Prices?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2004, 09:36:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by nuchpatrick
Heck Go.. it's at 2.00 near the attraction's.  I'm pay'n between 1.80-1.97 for 93 as it stands now. At least I get decent gas mileage but jeezz..  This summer is going to suck.


This past weekend I was down in Sarasota for a volleyball tournament.  Sarasota has a pretty good racket going.  The last Chevron station before the Interstate was charging $1.97 for 89 octane and the pumps were nearly dry.  Why?  Because its a good hour or so to Tampa and there aren't any stations between University Parkway and Brandon's mall.  The pumps were so dry that it took nearly a full 45 seconds to pump a gallon, and with a big SUV gas tank it seemed like an eternity.

I can only imagine what's going on with the stations on Irlo Bronson just outside the Disney gates.  :eek:

Offline Charon

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Gas Prices?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2004, 09:44:59 AM »
Quote
Wait...what happened to all that cheap oil that the US was fighting for in Iraq?


Cheap is not the issue as much as an alternative source of supply should the local fundamentalists decide not to let the crown prince rule any more in Saudi Arabia. [Venezuela of course, too]

Plus, the major, golbal oil companies currently have few direct operations in the Middle East because the countries tend to have state-run oil companies that take care of the highly lucrative exploration and production in house. I imagine that will not be the case with Iraq.

"Blood for Oil" is a bit simplistic, but there will clearly be significant benefits for the global oil compnies and infrastructure support companies. And, from "Condi Rice" to the Veep, to the Pres himself, this is an "oil" administration. Oil may not have been the primary driver in the decision to go to war, but it is certainly a very significant "win/win."  IMO, certainly more significant than any real fear that Saddam would end up vaporizing NY City.

Charon
« Last Edit: March 31, 2004, 09:48:21 AM by Charon »

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2004, 09:52:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
Oil may not have been the primary driver in the decision to go to war, but it is certainly a very significant "win/win."  IMO, certainly more significant than any real fear that Saddam would end up vaporizing NY City.

Charon


Ah yes, disregard the past 12 years of broken UN sanctions, etc.

Quote
"In 1991, Security Council Resolution 688 demanded that the Iraqi regime cease at once the repression of its own people, including the systematic repression of minorities -- which the Council said, threatened international peace and security in the region. This demand goes ignored.

Last year, the U.N. Commission on Human Rights found that Iraq continues to commit extremely grave violations of human rights, and that the regime's repression is all pervasive. Tens of thousands of political opponents and ordinary citizens have been subjected to arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, summary execution, and torture by beating and burning, electric shock, starvation, mutilation, and rape. Wives are tortured in front of their husbands, children in the presence of their parents -- and all of these horrors concealed from the world by the apparatus of a totalitarian state."
--President Bush to the UN assembly, Feb. 2003

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2004, 09:57:04 AM »
Rip,

Just because the UN sanctions were ignored doesn't mean that sometime in the next 100 years the offending party would not have realized the mistake and complied......... They just needed more time and understanding to come around is all. Just like those poor folks that brought us the ovens at those camps in Germany.................
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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2004, 09:58:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Rip,

Just because the UN sanctions were ignored doesn't mean that sometime in the next 100 years the offending party would not have realized the mistake and complied......... They just needed more time and understanding to come around is all. Just like those poor folks that brought us the ovens at those camps in Germany.................


:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

Okay, you've helped me realize the errors of my thinking!  JUST NEED MORE TIME!