Author Topic: Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!  (Read 773 times)

Offline v355_Spike

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« on: December 26, 1999, 11:21:00 AM »
Man, I don't have a clue about how and when to use the TrimTabs! Do you guys adjust em during flying? Is it best to just leave em at the default setting when flying?

From some of the post I've read, sounds like some of the guys mess with em during flight. Totally clueless on this topic, thoughts anyone, LOL, S!

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Offline lemur

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 1999, 08:05:00 PM »
I've programmed the 2nd hat on my JS to act as a trim controller.

Plus frequent use of the autopilot (when I have a spare moment) keeps my plane trimmed.

Personally, I hate trim.

I guess trim bugs me since it doesn't really add to the game. And it's the #1 complaint I hear from other folks when discussing why they don't like AH over (ahem) other online sims.

Also weren't some planes inherently designed to require very little trim?

I think a nice balance would be an 'auto trim' feature. Something that works *almost* as good as a manual trim so it rewards the 'purists' who don't use it, but it also helps draw in the 'This sim is too complex' crowd.

Certainly there is precident for this. I mean didn't we used to have to manually switch fuel tanks? Wasn't that feature also thrown out in favor of an 'automagic' system that works almost as good as manually switching?

~Lemur

Offline v355_Spike

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 1999, 10:00:00 PM »
Tnks Lemur. Man, are you sayin if I'm flyen and dying in AH and I dont use the autopilot at all that I'm geten outa trim??????????

On my commands sheet i see like 6 different trim commands, LOL. You seem to refer to a single command that ya put on your hat! Whats up with that, is there a command I'm missing?  S!

BTW-I think i dislike trim to the max,hehe.

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Offline v355_Spike

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 1999, 10:02:00 PM »
Dugh, i just reread your post. Ya got one of those sticks sos ya got two hats. I only got one hat, LOL. It appears trim is a big deal in this game.

If ya wanna talk about this topic more, plezzzzzzzzzzz do, clueless, S!

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Offline Mark Luper

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 1999, 06:01:00 AM »
The fuel tank switching feature is still there. All you need to do is leave it alone and it will auto switch.

An easy neutral trimming technique I use regularly is to use "auto-level", the "x" key, regularly especially before entering a fight. Granted, it trims it level for your current speed, but does seem to neutralize the controls enough to give me a resonably stable gun platform. The only trim I use manualy while flying is the elevator trim and I have a hat on my throttle I use for that. The only times I normally use this trim is when making high speed dives and the plane starts to "balloon". (yes, I am a sissy uber stang dweeb  )

Hope this helps some.

MarkAT
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Offline Hristo

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 1999, 06:18:00 AM »
Trim is just another routine you need to grab, IMO.

Some planes like 190 require just slight trimming, as it should be. 109, on the other hand, requires constant trimming, again as it should be  

Offline Duckwing6

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 1999, 07:30:00 AM »
if you don't trim the airplane won't stay at a certain attitude .. e.g. if you fly fast the nose wants to go UP and most planes want to roll righ (left? dang can't remember wher i set the rim LOL).. anyhow for a seatdy aim it's extremely important to have the airplane trimmed at all speeds!

You can trim the elevator (nose up / down), aileron (roll left/right) and rudder (yaw left/right)..

for example when you don't use your rudder trim you airplane will skid/slip sideways (the little ball under your artificial horizon is not centered) and therefore produce more drag which costs you climbrate and speed.
To get the ball centered "step on the ball" e.g. ball left of center left rudder (or trim left).

I have the trim keys programmed on the 4 lower buttons of my MS-Sidewinder, but if you don't have a programmable stick the key's should do fine too...

You also have the option of AUTOTRIM via the autopilot..
"x" trims you for level flight
"shift-x" autotrim on angle
".speed xxx" command sets a *trim*speed and "alt-x" activates the trim to speed mode

Hope that helps

Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
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Offline iculus

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 1999, 07:31:00 AM »
In real life, planes need to be trimmed, trim is even more essential when dealing with a ~2,000hp prop driven plane.  

As with all things, if you practice it, you will get better at it.  Soon it becomes second nature.

Having a no trim "easy mode" is a bad idea.

My 2 cents

IC

Mr.ED

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 1999, 08:59:00 AM »
To trim or not to trim, one heck of a question.
I have one tophat set for ailiron/elevator trim, and a seperate one for rudder.
Well guess what, I can't get the elevator trim to work. I have used the keyboard directly, and have tested the joystick buttons, they work.
Good thing I'm a Pony dweeb, don't need no stinkin' rudder trim anyhow! :-)

My pinky button is my auto-level, works for me!

Mr.ED
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Offline miko2d

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 1999, 10:11:00 AM »
 Stop guys, before you say something you may regret in the future.

 The WB is currently the most authentic prop-fighter simulation with five years of tradition and thousands of addicts. Many of AH people are current/former WB players. HTC are the guys who created WB and they are making AH even more realistic. You would have to take a look at WB and visit the forums of WB to get a feel of the things.
 www.cyberus.ca/~argo/agw/
lists.imagiconline.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi

 Now about trim. Only to a newbie pilot it seems unimportant and irritating. If you do not fly well, the importance of trim may not be evident. Only after months and months of flying and studying a certain plane, learning how it behaves at different altitudes, speeds and configurations, will you be able to use the plane close to 100%. Then you will notice how important the trim is.
 I would say that trim easily adds 10%-25% to  the plane performance but that will not be correct because those percentages are the most important - they come from the top. It is like having the longest sword. If you and your enamy have the same level of skill and his sword is one inch longer, that inch makes  all the difference.
 Any expert in a certain plane will tell you - there are experts in some planes, even those few people want to fly (P47 for instance) that can do miracles with them. Fight them 1 on 1 in the same plane and you will notice that he can pull out of a dive faster with smaller loss of speed. He can pull a tighter turn at the stall speed and not spin out, he will fly faster in level flight, roll faster than you can follow and do lot of things that will make you think his flight model is hacked. All that is actually the signs of mastery of trim.

 When you fly, you should constantly tinker with your trim settings. I would say that the workload of trimming the plane is actually more then flying it.
 If you are out of trim you have to apply stick/pedals to compensate and since you yse the same stick/pedals to aim your guns,  your ability to hit anything is severely impaired.
 If your rudder is not trimmed, your plane is flying a bit sideways. The air resistance is increased a lot, you lose a lot of your top speed. Your nose is not pointed where you are byllets/shells and especially with rockets or bombs, you will discover that they are not flying toward the aiming point at all...
 Your plane will tend to roll/yaw and toy will have constantly play with stick and rudder to keep it level.
 If your elevator is not trimmed, the plane will pull up or down. You will not be able to pull as tight a turn as you want. Your precision goes to hell with the corresponding  loss of speed and aiming accuracy.
 Pretty much the same goes for roll, especially during a stall-fight (turn-fight at slow speeds).

 You have to change your trim constantly because it is different for different speeds and engine powers. You need different trims for cruising, diving, pulling out, reversing and turnfighting. Some experts in B&Z (Boom and Zoom) planes know the speed they shoot att when they are diving. So they set their trim for that speed and have to work their sticks a lot just to keep flying straight. Once they see a victim in a certain position, they dive in such a way, so that when it is time to pull the trigger, their plane is perfectly trimmed without extra work.
 You cannot really use autotrim during combat - it takes a couple of seconds of flying straight to stabilize which is not practical.

 The reason that the trim is not made automatic for all the planes like in some arcade simulators is that real planes differed a lot in that respect. Add a computerized trim to a plane that was great otherwise, and you get an super-weapon much out of proportions to the real plane's capabilities.
 It applies to quite a few features, not just trim. Here are some examples:
 - while the Bf109 was very maneuverable airtframe, due to very narrow cockpit and very high stick forces, at high speeds the pilot physically could not apply enough force to the stick to make use of that meneuvrebility.
 - while P47 was a lumbering behemoth compared to the other planes, its wide cockpit, extremely low stick forces and great high-speed handling allowed it's pilots to outmaneuver the supposedly superior planes, especially at high speeds and altitude. It was a very stable gun platform and combined with 8 guns it made it a very effective fighter.
 - F6F is one of the greatest fighters in WB, but very few people fly it. Due to the extencive pilot's armor it's rear view is nonexistant. Take off without a good wingman and you will die without knowing what hit you.

 The point is, guys, that it will take you months or years to master AH or WB. It is not a point and shoot game like Quake. It is actually closer to chess.
 Once you become an expert in your selected plane, your knowlege of trim among other things will separate you from the other pilots.

miko--

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 12-27-1999).]

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 12-27-1999).]

Offline Minotaur

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 1999, 10:39:00 AM »
Spike,

Didn't like trim at first, now I do.  It took some time, as Hristo explains, to make it an intrical part of my flight routine.

OttoTrim can really wack the hell out of trim if used improperly.  You have to be in OttoTrim about 5 seconds for it to stabilize.   Take it out of Otto too soon, and your trim is really hosed.

I remapped my trim keys into a more convient keyboard cluster, than the AH default.  If you don't have a joystick that can support HOTAS trim, I recommend the [q-w-e-a-s-d] cluster.  Or, the keyboard has a built in array for trim, the [INS-DEL-.....-PageDown] cluster.

Good Luck!

Mino

Offline v355_Spike

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 1999, 07:55:00 PM »
Great stuff guys, tnks. Gonna work on it. Dugh, no trim in EAW, gonna take some time to get used to, LOL.

Duckwing, still fuzzy about what ya said about the .speedxxx command. Dunno how to use that command. Are ya tryen to say ya can have the game remember certain trim settings, for certain speeds, in a particular AC?

Another point. At least for now I'm gonna work on the pony, LOL. Sos, If I got the pony trimmed correct, the plane should be perty much effortless to fly? Currently she wiggles around like nobody business, I think I need TRIM!!!!!

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[This message has been edited by v355_Spike (edited 12-27-1999).]

Offline LLv34_Snefens

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 1999, 10:44:00 PM »
I actually use auto trim a lot, and think it works pretty well. Flying a lot of EAW like Spike I am not really used to trimming, but now I think I got it figured out pretty well.

As I fly only 109 when being fighter, I am bound to BnZ most of the time and as stated the 109 needs seriously trimming. The big speed differences encountered in BnZ makes the planes almost uncontrollable, but I often just put it on "auto-angle" if I have a long approach, and turn it off as I am doing the final manouvers for the shot. Then I trim manually as I pull up after the attack as speed falls again. All trimming done by keyboard.

Still considering me only average skill, and never having had pedals, I haven't touched rudder and rudder trim once when in combat, only during takeoff. Guess I won't learn to master this game until I figure to use that well too or get myself some pedals.

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 1999, 11:29:00 PM »
like the man says trim is really ood ,( some of the lw planes i.e. most 109s and fw did not have a ajustable trim at all).

with proper use you can proform miracals (it is really a cheat mostly imho) you can pull out of compression in most planes as it stands now, you will know the guys who do this by the famous ufo turn in the 51s and me doin 650 kn dives in my trusty 109 (im not really dangerous little manuverability at that speed but it scares the hell out of 51s lol)

hope they fix it soon (preferably turn it off)

Offline Duckwing6

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Trim Tabs, Whats up with those things!
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 1999, 09:23:00 AM »
Spike: There is a trim mode that alows you to set a certain speed (most usefull in climb)
you use it like this:

In the radio text bar type:
.speed160 (any speed you like)
(not sure if you have to use a space inbetween speed an d the number)

you should then get a message like "Climb speed 160"

then activate the trim with ALT-X (trim light will be blue)

Hope that helps
Cyas UP there !

SC-Duckwing6