Author Topic: Pyro Dammage modell? (Read 678 times)

Wilbus · « **on:** March 31, 2004, 12:24:43 PM »

Is the dammage modell suposed to become a, how shall I put it, "take a hit and get decreased performance" Dammage modell, i.e, if I take a 20mm in the middle of my wing, will I get decreased performance or will I keep flying like normal (the way it is in AH1) untill I finally lose some kind of part from more hits (ie flap, aileron, piece of wing).

The Graphical improvement in the dammage modell as seen on the P51 is looking really neat but will it actually affect the plane to take lots of small hits without actually losing a part?

moot · « **Reply #1 on:** March 31, 2004, 10:08:35 PM »

my gut feeling is not for the moment..

Kweassa · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2004, 11:21:20 PM »

I'd root all for it, IF the quality of hits are also modelled in.

Otherwise, with what we have now(or, what it seems we have now) it'd just promote the shoot and pray mentality even more.

It's bad enough(well, for my personal taste, and a quite a lot of other people, too) that AH guns hit out so far - imagine it's coupled with a performance decrease with everyround hit.. see an extending enemy, spray everything you got behind him, get a coupled of pings, see him slow down and nail him.

With a scheme like that even a slowpoke .303 armed Hurri1 or a SpitV would be more preferable over a fast, clumsy maneuvering Bf109G which requires precision hits to kill anything.

The more simple the DM/hit judgement/gunnery model is, the more the game prefers more maneuverable planes. The only reason why the N1K2 or the Spits are so popular as the La7s and P-51s in the game, is that it can maneuver good, and can still shoot down something at 400~500 yards.

..

If the quality of hits, and a more sophisticated DM with both internal/external aspects, then it's worth a shot. It'd change the game fundamentally. Some people might not like it, but again, personally, I think it's the way to go. Once people taste "realism" in gameplay, they never go back. They learn to accept and cherish it.

Batz · « **Reply #3 on:** April 01, 2004, 12:19:46 AM »

I agree Kweassa you cant have one without the other.

Wilbus · « **Reply #4 on:** April 01, 2004, 03:21:37 AM »

I believe you've missunderstood me.

What I want is not something that produces drag due to hits, I don't want a bullet hole of X size to produce X amount of drag reducing speed by X mph.

What I want is to get rid of the "all or nothing" system. As it is not, you either have you left aileron, or you don't, it's as simple as that.
What I'd like to see is some sort of % dammage system. If you take let's say 3x50 cal hits in your aileron, you don't lose the whole thing but rather, judging from the hit velocity and the type of round hit (AP, HE etc) and other factors, you lose a certain amount of your roll rate. So these 3x50 cals that all hit you aileron may reduce your roll rate by 35% instead of the "100% or XXX%" we have no, all or nothing.

It's been done in other flight sims, including online, so I don't see why HTC couldn't do it.

Let's face it, the "all or nothing" dammage modell has been old and out-dated for years now, it's time for something new and more modern.

jonnyb · « **Reply #5 on:** April 01, 2004, 01:49:34 PM »

I agree something needs to be done to the current damage model, however I don't think your model goes far enough wilbus. As a first step towards an end, your system makes sense.

Kweassa's model provides the endpoint. If an aileron, elevator, rudder, wing, fuselage, or any other part is damaged on an airframe, it will have an effect on drag, and consequently on speed as well as affecting its own system (i.e. roll for the aileron).

Wilbus · « **Reply #6 on:** April 01, 2004, 02:38:36 PM »

Yes JonnyB, that would be the ultimate, question is can it be done? And the second question is, as Kweassa said, how will this be modelled with all the spray and pray?

Kweassa · « **Reply #7 on:** April 01, 2004, 02:47:53 PM »

Obviously it's done Wil.

FB/AEP has proven its point.

Of course, admittably it took 1C:Maddox numerous patches, a second game of the whole series, and two separate add-ons to that second game with patches of its own, within a span of several years to finally simmer down to a satisfactory level.

It still has some issues - multiple 20mm shots not satisfactory enough to bring down a plane if its spread apart(I've seen a record of 35x 20mm rounds to bring down a Bf109 - 1~2 20mm shots spread over every part of external structure their is..).. but other than that, in normal circumstances it feels good. Really good!

Another issue is with FB/AEP netcoding which seems to be pretty unstable - people playing in the same area of the planet have no problems, but anomalies keep manifests itself whenever people play with the other side of the Earth..

But, at any rate, it is possible, and it has been done. The scope of variety of situations a pilot has to cope with - both as the hunter and the hunted - is incredibly gorgeously done.

Wilbus · « **Reply #8 on:** April 01, 2004, 03:05:56 PM »

Rgr Kweassa, should have asked my question differently, can it be done in a Multi-mega-player online flight game? Can it be done by HTC?

I'd be satisfied with quite many different modells, be it like the one in AEP or something that I described if we could JUST PLEASE get rid of the "all or nothing" modell.

Kweassa · « **Reply #9 on:** April 01, 2004, 03:30:41 PM »

I don't see why not, Wil..

I don't think the MMOG aspect is a relevant issue - the situation is limited, but typically the numbers one person fights in, in a single FB/AEP MP room, would be pretty much simular to a AH MA fight with average numbers of planes fighting between two bases. I don't have a problem in regards to the DM with 20~32 people.

Now.. the second point IMO is really the question. Frankly AH2 is amazing. It's better than I've thought. I'll be willing to bet my left nut that HTC can do it. But would they want to do it..??

FB/AEP gamers and AH gamers have different backgrounds. They the same in the fact that all of them love combat flight sims. But most of the FB/AEP folk have been baptized from the very beginning in what "realism" has to offer. Many AH folk are different - they are seriously skeptical about "realism".

Why, just in the many previous discussions about DM, gunnery, hitting distances etc etc. we've all encountered people with radically different thoughts, making a point that they don't want that kind of "realism" - with its basis ranging from some intriguing thoughts about the definition of "realism", to something more radical as they don't want that kind of realism because they won't be able to kill 10~20 planes in one sorties like they used to all the time.

The fact is, if such changes are implemented, the boards will be full of gripe for a very long time. Some serious debates will flush up. Everybody will be effected by the new changes in a fundamental way - not surprising, as the DM and gunnery is after all, one of the most important, fundamental basis of what consists an air combat game.

People will suddenly realize that they can't get kills at 400~500 yards. Even fast planes will be often required to enter some serious maneuvering shi* to gain gun solution.

The people who love speedster planes and plain BnZing will hate it because it will require them to get in really close, maneuvering becomes a necessity(which increases the risk of falling into the enemy's reversals), and they won't be able to get multiple kills in one sorty.

The people who love Spits and N1K2s will hate it because their plane is not fast enough to get behind something within 300 yards, and they can't snipe something out and immediately get a kill by snapping a wing off.

Basically everybody will hate it for the first few months - would they adapt to it and get to know it better, and love it? Like how some AH folk who started out very skeptical , but came to love FB/AEP? It's basicaly a risk.

..

I'm guessing even if oneday HTC decides to implement those things, it's still gonna require a lot of time to think. Or who knows, maybe they already made up their minds not to bother with it in the first place.. or.. maybe the change are imminent?

I guess we'll just have to wait and see for ourselves..

Manedew · « **Reply #10 on:** April 01, 2004, 03:38:08 PM »

seems primarly a client side thing... and shouldn't be too bad if these effects are kept to control surfaces.........

if you start including wings stablizers etc ... your in for much more work....

Il2 has things backwards like this at times... like why would i want full engine managements while the flaps work on 'takeoff' and 'landing' settings .. not degrees of deployment.

frist things frist....

This would be a nice addition if not already plan'd

Wilbus · « **Reply #11 on:** April 01, 2004, 05:01:56 PM »

Well Kweassa, Like I said, I just wanna get something new instead of the "all or nothing" 10 year old dammage modell, it was outdated 3 years ago and it's even more outdated now.

Sure the bullet holes in wings and in the cockpit are kwel to look at but they add nothing to the game really, except some eye candy. Why would I wanna know where a 50 cal or a 20mm hit if it doesn't effect my airplanes flying abilities?

Ok, I took a 20mm in my left wing, now I know that with the next 20mm hit in that wing it will go off, buit if I can keep the guy shooting at my right wing instead I can take a couple of more hits and still remain perfectly flyable?

I just hope the dammage modell is actually getting an update, not only an eye candy update (cool as it looks).