deadliest rifleman?

[-tronski-]

Ambrose's book Crazy Horse and Custer : The Parallel Lives of Two American Warriors Amazon
is an excellent reference on Indian tactics and fighting, and even a few losses on a raid was considered extremely excessive.

The Indians allowing themlseves to take those kind of losses against a fixed position without taking flight sounds fanciful indeed.

 Tronsky

[Leslie]

Depends on the Indians.  There were Cherokee Confederates who ambushed a Yankee column in Bishop's Pass, Tennessee 1862.  They fired a volley from their muskets, and threw them down, and attacked the Union column with knives and spears, and they killed a lot of Union troops and even took scalps.

Cherokee Indians are considered fierce warriors.  Right up there with the Creeks when it comes to war.




Les

[Holden McGroin]

Study up on Chief Joseph's excellent leadership and tactics of the Nez Perce in their retreat from Wallowa.  The manuever is still studied at US Army War College and West Point.

Another little known but important battle is the Modoc War of 1873.  

Under the leadership of Kentipoos, or Captain Jack, about 70 Modocs held off the US Cavalry for several months by using a lava bed as a natural fortress.  

It is the only time a US General officer was killed in an Indian campaign. (Custer was a LT Col when killed) and due to Captain Jack's tactics it was the most expensive cavalry campaign in history.

[lazs2]

maybe it was Montana.  I am going by seeing the show one time.  They  were talking about Wyoming earlier so I might have gotten em mixed up.   Anyone see the show that recalls?

2 bighorn..  I don't know what year but it was not 1860.  Do you have any info that would debunk the History Channel story?

Black powder guns were sticky and messy and fouled barrels but the 44 rimfire was a low powered round with less fouling than most.... seems about perfect for the task as shown.   not much fouling and light recoil..  fireing from cover behind logs... easy reload.   The biggest problem would have been if the extractor tore the soft rim on the rimfire round.  Can't imagine the rounds cooking off if say even 300 rounds were fired in 8 hours.

curval...I have no doubt that if they hadn't killed those indians that they would not have been arrested by said indians and fined or imprisoned.   Indians were very unpleasant to captives.  noble or not.

Mrbill... do you have info on the 'hayfield fitght'?   That sounds more like it... There were like 25 guys of which about a half dozen were civilians armed with civilian rifles... might have been more than one henry in the bunch.   They were gathering hay in order to feed the livestock at the fort.   What indians did they run into?

lazs

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Maniac
Was thinking the same thing... 25 men would get overrun badly vs 1000 indians hehe....

Look up Rorkes Drift battle, something like is possible given western technoligical and tactical superiority combined with fixed defenses.

[gofaster]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Look up Rorkes Drift battle, something like is possible given western technoligical and tactical superiority combined with fixed defenses.

I believe that battle is still re-enacted today, for the general public's education.

[Leslie]

Here, there's a big to do about Choctaw Indians.  They want to be recognized as American Indians, as part of the southern Indians.  We call em ******s, but they are bad news, anyway you look at them.  Seriously doubt they are legitimate Indians.

They want casinos and money.  Did you know here in Alabama, an Indian doesn't need a hunting or fishing license?



Les

[BlkKnit]

was this the "wagon box" fight?  1868?  oh wait, lasz mentioned the haystack fight....coulda been that one.  Both occurred during the combined sioux / cheyenne / arapahoe effort to close a string of US forts being built in thier territory.   They won BTW.  the forts were abandoned, and for a little while their lands were safe.  Red Cloud then went "peaceful" afterwards.

Read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee"  for some details.

I believe the numbers were somewhat fanciful, but thats just my opinion.  Red Cloud had some 5000 warriors at his disposal during this war, laying seige to 2 forts and racking up the biggest massacre up until Little Bighorn.  The Fetterman massacre cost the US army 101 men.  I seem to recall a story that a youngster named Crazy Horse was involved in laying the trap.

Anyway....at Adobe Walls, Texas, a fellow with a sharps performed a pretty amazing feat, killing a large number of the attacking comanche at a range of out to 1000 yards.

[lazs2]

Ok.. got this from a quick searh..  

"The Indians struck on 1 and 2 August at both Fort Phil Kearny and Fort C. F. Smith. Some 500 Cheyennes caught 30 civilian hay cutters and soldier-guards two miles from the latter post on 1 August. The soldiers, sheltered in a log corral, shot the first rush of men to pieces. Only one warrior made it to the barricade and he was shot dead. The Cheyennes set the grass afire, but the flames stopped 20 feet short of the logs, 'as thoght arrested by supernatural power', one of the defender said. The smoke blew back on the Indians, who used it to retrieve their 20 dead or wounded warriors.
The Indians had been stung badly in the six-hour Hayfield Fight, when a dozen civilians and 20 soldiers fought off odds of at least 20-to-one for six hours. (9) "

This sounds like the fight as the History channel did say that the indians were massed and attacking several forts at the sme time.. The smoke and fire would explain a lot of the inability of the indians to mass an attack... 6 hours of shooting from cover at indians in the open would explain the slaughter.   No rifle would be too stressed firing 2 or 300 rounds in 6 hours and no chance of ammo cooking off.   The first rush killed 20... that left 5 or more hours to shoot the rest.  

lazs

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by LAWCobra
Do you even know what barrel hamonics are?
 Or are you by showing us your ignorance again trying to wow us with your wit.

Ignorance is wit.

I wonder if you heard a distinctive 'whoosh' sound passing over your head.

let me help...

You see, you were commenting on heat throwing off accuracy. In the midst of your thread were numerous mistakes. So I wondered if your keyboard was getting hot. See? It's kind of a play on words thing. A joke.

Get it?

[Leslie]

Well I find you offensive MT, and that ought to be good enough for you.



Les

[MrBill]

Here are two links that briefly describe both fights.
Sorry I posted the weaponry backwards in my first post.
As you can see the story's differ somewhat, as do most of the accounts of the Indian fights.  Even the official army records are thought to be, ummmm enhanced, when it comes to most of the fights.

To bad no one had the foresight to ask the Indians, and record their take.

We will never know how many Indian dead there truly were in any fight, but "most" accounts, that are considered accurate, (to some extent) claim some 60 or so dead.  Even the large scale fights (Custer, Fetterman, Rosebud et el) that Indian people did talk about afterwards seem to indicate that the Indians would withdraw somewhere between 50 and 100 dead.

http://home.hiwaay.net/~dbennett/tiowhaug.html

http://www.annebell.com/Bighorn.htm

[loser]

This thread is garbage.

Laz i dont blame you for starting this thread as I dont think you had the intention of it turning into a big racism festival.

Thumbs down to this thread and a few who posted in it.

[Leslie]

It's not that bad loser.  If you responded, you know it has to be stupid.  Don't worry about it.



Les

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Leslie
Well I find you offensive MT, and that ought to be good enough for you.



Les

WTF?