Author Topic: Nose Bounce  (Read 982 times)

Offline SC-Sp00k

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Nose Bounce
« on: December 28, 1999, 05:45:00 AM »
Can someone explain to me "Nose Bounce"
I know what it is and what it does to my gunnery.

I want to know what causes it exactly be it programming or my damn Saitek digital 3D Cyborg stick.

Is there a way to fix it?

Thanks in advance.



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Offline SC-GreyBeard

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 1999, 06:16:00 AM »
if ya find out how to stop it, PUhLEASE!!!! tell me..

I've damped, I've run em all high, all low, and everywhere in between.
Deadbands up, down, and if I could, I'd try sideways.  No matter what I do, I touch gun trigger it's spray and pray time. Regardless of aircraft, speed, range, or whatever. (even if I use keyboard).

Only time I DON'T have it is in Buff. It's so bad You'll seldom see me in a fighter anymore.

I use a MS "Sidewinder" Precision Pro, (USB)
on a PII 450. 128 ram PC100, TnT Viper 550, with dual Voodoo 2's
I've got the deadbands currently set to kill any spikings from the stick, (in the AH stick setup,, that graphing thing was a big help!!  THX  HT!!)

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Offline Hristo

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 1999, 06:26:00 AM »
The nose bounce I experience happens at low speeds in 109. It goes something like this:

At some 30 degrees nose up and 200 IAS, push full rudder and quickly release the rudder input to neutral. The plane will bounce left-right at least 5 times. The bounce will get dampened, but it spoils gun solution.  Could this be a different slat deployment effect ?

At same speed push nose full down and leave the stick there. The G meter shows something like -2g, -0g, -1g during what should be steady nose push down.

I doubt this is related to my stick (TM gear), since there was no such things in WB versions I played (2.x).

So, is that the nose bounce so many talk about ?

Offline Duckwing6

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 1999, 06:30:00 AM »
well i don't know what is really meant by "nose bounce" either .. maybe just the adverse yaw we were talking about ?

i've seen my MS-Sidewinder spiking when i hit the trigger maybe that's why . i didn't look (yet) into the sidewinder software if that can be dampened there thou.
 

Offline Dinger

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 1999, 08:02:00 AM »
Um, Hristo, something like that, but it isn't slat deployment since the c205 has it as bad as the 109.  The La5 has practically none, and as a result is a mighty fine platform for hosing down cons from extreme AoAs (Read: don't automatically pounce on a La5 stalling out nose-up; the pilot has more control than you think)
These silly oscillations could be the faults of pilots, or of certain A/C designers, but I have my doubts.  Anyway, some models have it worse than others; whether it should be there is a different discussion, one for which I am not qualified.

Offline rosco-

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 1999, 08:06:00 AM »
  One thing you can do is keep your airspeed higher, reduces nose bounce a lot. If you are in a low E state its much worse and hardly noticable at higher E states. Some planes are less prone to it, LA5 seems easier to keep steady.


 Oh yea...I noticed that at least with a twisty stick like my Pre pro that you can help yaw bounce a lot by not just letting the rudder snap back, "easy thing to do". By easing the rudder back to center instead of just letting it come imeadiatly back you can reduce that sway motion a lot. The range of motion for a twisty stick is small, so gradual rudder imput is difficult, compared to peddals.

[This message has been edited by rosco- (edited 12-28-1999).]

Offline Vermillion

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 1999, 08:23:00 AM »
Hristo:
The problem you discribed with the rudder is indeed what is called "nose bounce".

It is an artifact of the Physics Modeling, not an attempt at modeling asymetrical slat deployment (you only fly the 109 I guess   )

"Nose Bounce" is possible in any of the 3 axis' of movement, and differs from aircraft to aircraft, and joystick setup to joystick setup. Just try the C.205 for example, it bounces horribly in all 3 axis.

Obviously, yours is primarily (mine was too, and I use CH gear) in the yaw axis, and if you move your yaw damper up a little at a time, you should notice that "bouncy" or springlike effect to decrease. The downside is that your rudder will be slightly less responsive the higher you move this damper.

All the other guys:
One thing I notice is that everyone of you are using digital joysticks. For some reasons, digital sticks are much more prone to this problem than the traditional analog sticks.  

Wish I could help, but all I can suggest is to isolate the problem one axis at a time. Here is how I do it.

For instance pitch (nose up and down).

First set your responsiveness sliders up. Here's mine from memory.

I prefer the nose to respond slowly at first (Am an E-fighter and blackouts are my enemy) on the joystick, but to then get more responsive the harder I pull. So I might set them up 50,60,70,80,90,100.

Then adjust the deadband until you can release the stick after you have trimmed, and the nose doesn't move or wander. If it moves, or has centering problems, slightly increase the deadband until it doesn't.

Now you need to set the damper. Pull the stick about halfway back and release (without letting go of the stick) to nuetral. If the nose bounces back and forth like on a spring, increase the damper slightly. Repeat until the bouncing is minor or the control is begining to get unresponsive to your taste (mine is setup about 20% to 25% of the way up the vertical scale).

Now do the same thing for roll and yaw.

In roll (no blackouts here) I like more instant response so I setup the sliders in a 80,90,100,100,100 etc fashion. Then Deadband like above. The damper I set very low on roll, between 5% to 10% its not as critical as in pitch and yaw.

Now in my setup, my rudders (or the yaw axis) are overly sensitive (CH PRo's), so I set the main sliders pretty low, like 30, 35, 40, 45, etc.  Then again I setup deadband to remove any centering problems. Now here I have a horrible problem with bounce, just like Hristo. So, I set up the damper pretty high. Mine is set like around 40% of the total on the slider.

Right now, I have very little to no nose bounce at all, except in the C.205 and even there it is manageable.

Thats how I do it. Other may have better suggestions. Good Luck!

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Offline jmccaul

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 1999, 08:30:00 AM »
Nose bounce in my experience is when you are pulling a certain amount in the pitch axis then you lessen that pressure on the stick and instead of the nise sinkinig back gently to it's new position it will oscilatte around this point for a few seconds, this also occurs with yaw but not pitch. Other factors are i think 1) the plane you fly, e.g P51 seems to be alot better than spitfire
2) How far out of trim you are.

   I am not sure if this is a game issue or a joystick issue. Some people have said that nose bounce is worse for them in warbirds but i find WB planes quite stable this suggests a joystick issue bbut on the other hands i have tried the same settings as in WB with the same stick and i get nose bounce in AH but not WB which suggestsa game issue.


Go figure, as you yanks say (at least in films)      

Offline Hristo

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 1999, 08:38:00 AM »
Thanks for help, Verm.

My stick scaling is very much similar to the ones I used in WB. I like good rudder response, especially at low speeds, so dampening it is not an option for me.

At least now I know it is the FM and I hope it gets cured soon.

Offline Sledriver

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 1999, 08:51:00 AM »
I have been flying the 109 and the nose bounce is terrible. I don't think I've hit anyone yet. I've read all your replies, and half of it I don't understand. I'm not a real fly boy, just a wanna-be. I have seen the controls for the responsiveness, but I'm not touching them because I haven't got a clue what they do. This nose bounce happens to me no matter what poistion I'm in. I was chasing a B17 in level flight, when I squeezed my trigger, I felt like I was riding a bull, up, down, all around. I have a MS Sidewinder 3D Pro.
Something else I'm having a real problem with is the blackouts. There are guys diving at me shooting me down, but if I so much as going into a shallow dive, I start to blackout. Can't shoot anyone unless I'm on a level playing field.



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Mr.ED

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 1999, 11:51:00 AM »
Dudes,

I use CH Products junk, and what I found out in AW3, also applies here. When you scale your stick more than a 20% spread, it causes a small hic-up in the crosshair display for calibration. The hic-up becomes the bounce.
I have been messing with scaling all week.
After setting my scaling to 100-80% across the board, the dang hic-up/nose bound is gone. I also had to give it just a tad of dedband to stop the rudder & crosshair from twitching.

Mr.ED
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Offline glars

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 1999, 12:35:00 PM »
 
Quote
when I squeezed my trigger, I felt like I was riding a bull, up, down, all around

Sledriver you could be the culprit here  

That sounds like PIO (pilot induced oscillation) where you are snatching at the fire button and causing the nose to bounce.

I don't know the button setup on a sidewinder  - are there buttons on the base of the stick? If so, you could try reassigning one of them as the button to fire your guns in the Setup/Stick Mapping/Flight Keys.

That could help keep your twitchy fingers quiet on the actual joystick.

Glars

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 1999, 04:33:00 PM »
On a totally different note here...

You can USE this to your advantage right now. If you have a 109 or .205 on your tail remember they have the wildest bounce for aiming. This means NO smooth turns that they can line you up in and fire. Instead use hard and sudden vertical jinks with a few yaw turns. You can even poke your head backwards and giggle as he sprays all over hells half acre trying conquer his own plane to hit you!

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Offline Duckwing6

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 1999, 05:46:00 PM »
For the MS-Prec Pro folks here .. just open the control panel for the sidewinder and then look what the rudder control does when you move the stick around .. it's spiking like hell ! you see pretty big yaw inputs especially when you have combined roll / pitch inputs .. (NO i'm NOT wrangling my stick and twisting it allaround when i do that)

Offline Hristo

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Nose Bounce
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 1999, 10:28:00 PM »
Things are about to change, Sorrow, things are about to change  


(I hope)