Author Topic: iraq uprising  (Read 1963 times)

Offline Hortlund

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iraq uprising
« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2004, 06:09:45 AM »
I know english is not your first language Naso, but those two things are the same.

To avoid getting dragged into another one of the absurd "prove every word you say like this was a court of law"-demands that always pop-up when someone points out the Iraqi ties to terrorism, I choose to point at two things that even the most fanatic anti-war types cannot dispute.

Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Acqsa martyrs brigades are all terrorist organizations, they were all supported by Iraq in various ways. Easily verifiable facts.

Now why dont you go back to whining about another thread "going down"  :aok

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2004, 06:30:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naso
I'll tell you if you promise to put down the flamethrower.

:)


I could have chosen much different wording if that was my intent...

So go ahead, please explain what you have in mind..

Offline Naso

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« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2004, 08:00:25 AM »
Conflict of interests.

In every political system, the power is mantained by few means.

One of the older is the brute force, and even if is still working somewhere today (Former Iraq, many African countries) is more and more less applicable in our western world.

It still work here in little areas, public order, blatantly subversion movements, internal terrorists without large support, but we can agree that in our western countries a power cannot be mantained with the use of the brute force without provoking a large uprising.

Another mean to mantain power is the culture, and here we enter in a more complex world, with many substrata.

In our countries there are different cultures (intended as common shared set of social rules, knowledge, values, and even phisical objects) but those cultures are all subspecies of the "western family".

Since we have (luckily) left in the past the dictatorial experiments, our sub-cultures share the same form of government, the democracy, it is not perfect, but seem, at the moment, the best that we can hope for.

The main carateristic of democracy is that the power is mantained via the "popular support".

Let's discard for the moment the big problem and argument relative to the media control, we can start with the concept that he who want to mantain or reach the power, need to like to the majority of the population, gain support.

To not have a biblical post, i'll concentrate first on one of theese way to gain support, that happens to have been in the past one of the means that, by itself, granted power, the religion.

It's still working very well, being identified with the defender of the common religion of the populace, is a great way to mantain support by the mayority without recurring to the use of the "lesser of the means", aka violence.

You can find good examples of the "old-style way" in a lot of the muslim countries, where many people in power (royal families) claim to be descendant of Muhammad, or when some leader claim to be the Mahdi.

In our countries it's more subtile, but you can bet that a leader acting and claiming to be a christian of the local variety (or in the case of the USA, more than one), will gain more support that one that is professing to be muslim or (for the USA), worse, atheist.

Here we can see one of the few main differences between our contries.

Here, I can assure you than an atheis will be way more considered than a muslim, heck, we had even professing non-believers as prime ministers or presidents.

But I bet that, maybe not in this crusade atmosfere today, but in pre 9/11, if you had to choose between an atheist and a muslim believer, it will be a tough call, but the atheis will have few possibility to have your vote.

In a nutshell:

To be a winner, left or right, you need to show to be a religious, in other words, being religious is a positive value in the race for power.

But, in the international field, the religious part become negative, for many reasons, expecially with a counterpart that is already in a defensive stance (the muslim world).

So, even if the man in power reached his power by showing a religious stance, he have to mediate this stance, find a balance that grant support from the interior, but, in the same time, does'nt spread to the external the image of a too much religious type (remember that religion imply Dogmas).

The latter is not something in wich Dubya is good at.

There will be more to say, but the religion part is not so important as it seem.

The main thing is economics.

(... continue...)

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2004, 08:47:37 AM »
Hortland.
How is Iraq support of the palistinians support of terror? George Bush has mediated with Palistinianians..so is he bartering with terrorist then? And telling Isreal to concede to thier demands?

No. The palistinians were not terrorists. In the US world view.If they were the US would simply have invaded Lebenon and the Gaza strip in thier war on terror..They didnt ..they never even used the term terrorists to apply to the Palistinians for years.

Name the incendent of terror that the US invaded Iraq for..

There is none. How then can it be an invasion that is now to be justified as part  of the war on terrorists? It cannot. Calling the Iraqis terrorists is also not correct.

But keep proping up your sad world view how ever you like..just dont pretend your doing it with reason or honesty.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2004, 09:23:46 AM »
(continue)

The economical part will require a more long premise, I hope to not become too boring.

We cannot deny that our economical system is not stable.

Not stable in the sense that we NEED to push always forward the economy, we cannot let it stagnate in a balanced status.

We need to continue producing richness, spending money, and grow.

We are like a man that is running, we cannot stop moving the legs, or we will fall face down.

the market (in some sense the new divinity) is our main leg, it need to keep expanding, for two main reasons.

We need more consumers (consume), and we need more resources (including low cost workforce).

so, for it's own survival, our system have to expand, and, since is a fight for survival, it do it in an aggressive manner.

To make a long premise short, we can attribute this force to all the parts of the economical system, the entities that we can put in a group and call them "economical powers".

The expantion of consume can happen, or expanding simply the number of customers, or expanding the needings of the already acquired customers base.

The latter is made in the inside, and we are well trained to be victim of the new toys that we are convinced are necessary for our survival.

The former is a little more difficult, and is made using first the "image", then the pressure on the debt (there are no countries in the world that dont own something to us), and, looking at the last tendence, even using armed force.

Anyway, the world is not so naive as we like to think, and the powers of many muslim countries, that have a delicate balance, mainly based on a stable economical system, a firmly religion permeated culture, see our aggressive penetration in their world as a menace to the status quo.

In theese cases, everything that comes from us is evil, we are evil, we are the enemy, a powerfull enemy.

With theese premises, let's look inside our system.

Gain support.

In our system, to be visible, to buy the hearts and minds, you need MONEY.

Unless you have your own (and in this case you are already part of the economic powers), you need support by the economic powers.

This means that you have, later, to pay your debt for the support given (Haliburton ring a bell?).

In both cases, you need to keep the expantion running, to mantain the (perceived or not) aggression toward the different cultures.

On the other side of the coin, even if, by absurd, you'll not mantain your word, and you'll try to think on a longer term, thus avoiding (or try) to expand so aggressively, you'll have worse consequences.

Trying to stop the run of the economy have a nice effect, it worsen the lifestyle of your voters.... uh oh.... BAAAAD.

It's a No-win situation, you need to mantain the running.

So, for the outside, at this point, you need to develope a way to do it "softly".

You have to play hidden, dirty tricks, while mantaining an innocent face.

The western countries, and the USA between them, as a leader, have done this in the last century.

There were many suspects, second guesses, but nothing that cut have been blatantly proved.

But GWB Jr. does'nt care, it's inebriated (??) by this superpower delirium.

9/11 has happened with the worse president possible.

A Roosvelt, a Kennedy, a Reagan, heck, even "BJ" Clinton or GWB senior cut have treated the thing better.

After 9/11, during the Afganistan work, there has been a moment in wich the USA could have obtained the impossible by the rest of the world (do you remember?).

With this Iraq mess the future is darker than ever, and we will ALL pay for this.

<----- look what he wrote...

"Oh my, I will be burned alive" :eek:

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2004, 09:26:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Hortland.
How is Iraq support of the palistinians support of terror? ..


Iraq Boosts Suicide Bomber Payment

By MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH
Associated Press Writer

NABLUS, West Bank (AP) — Saddam Hussein has increased money for the relatives of suicide bombers from $10,000 to $25,000, drawing sharp criticism from Washington. But Palestinians say the bombers are driven by a priceless thirst for revenge, religious zeal and dreams of glory — not greed.

Since Iraq upped its payments last month, 12 suicide bombers have successfully struck inside Israel, including one man who killed 25 Israelis, many of them elderly, as they sat down to a meal at a hotel to celebrate the Jewish holiday of Passover. The families of three suicide bombers said they have recently received payments of $25,000.

The devout Muslims among the bombers, a majority, believe they will go to heaven as martyrs and spend eternity in the company of 72 virgins. In grainy farewell home videos, they often read passages from the Muslim holy book, the Quran, and praise God. Secular attackers know that after the deed, their families will win the adulation of friends, neighbors and strangers.

The other motive seems to be a strong yearning for revenge. Relatives of many of the bombers recall how many of the young men's formative years were spent in Israeli jails. The mother of one bomber said her son once watched Israeli soldiers beating his father.

Mahmoud Safi, leader of a pro-Iraqi Palestinian group, the Arab Liberation Front, acknowledged that the support payments for relatives make it easier for some potential bombers to make up their minds. ``Some people stop me on the street, saying if you increase the payment to $50,000 I'll do it immediately,'' Safi said. He also suggested such remarks were made mostly in jest.

Saddam has said the Palestinians need weapons and money instead of peace proposals and has provided payments throughout a year and a half of Israeli-Palestinian battles. ``I saw on Iraqi TV President Saddam saying he will continue supporting the (uprising) even if it means selling his own clothes,'' said Safi.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Saddam's payments inspire a ``culture of political murder.''

``Here is an individual who is the head of a country, Iraq, who has proudly, publicly made a decision to go out and actively promote and finance human sacrifice for families that will have their youngsters kill innocent men, women and children,'' Rumsfeld said Wednesday.

But Saddam is not the only one giving money. Charities from Saudi Arabia and Qatar — both U.S. allies — pay money to families of Palestinians killed in the fighting, including suicide bombers.

The mother of Jamal Nasser, a 23-year-old architecture student who died trying to ram an explosives-laden car into a bus carrying Jewish settlers, said she received a check for $10,000 from Iraq and another for $5,000 from Saudi Arabia. She said she plans to put the money toward buying an apartment. She wants to move her family from the small place they've been renting for more than 20 years. The money she received is about half the cost of a small apartment in Nablus.

Fifty-five Palestinians have blown themselves up in attacks on Israeli civilians in the past 18 months of fighting.

Under the new Iraqi payscale, decided on March 12 during an Arab conference in Baghdad, the families of gunmen and others who die fighting the Israelis will still receive $10,000, while the relatives of suicide bombers will get $25,000.

Safi and two others from the Arab Liberation Front visit families in the northern West Bank and make the payments. ``We go to every family and give them a check,'' he said. ``We tell them that this is a gift from President Saddam and Iraq.''



Updated: April 3, 2002 3:23 PM
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Offline Skuzzy

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iraq uprising
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2004, 09:34:30 AM »
Naso, I am probably more cynical than pessimistic.  In the context of what is going on, I think pessimism and reality are not too far apart.
The horrors mankind has inflicted on itself and others in the name of religion are too well documented.  I see no reason why terrorists actiing in the name of religion will act any differently than history has dictated.
This is what my opinion is based on as to why there is nothing that can be done to stop this lunacy.

My reference to the United States backing away in conjunction with the 9/11 atrocity, is centered around our country sitting on its collective minds with knowledge of what could/would happen and doing nothing about it.
An inherent fear of being politically wrong, or being concerned about being chastised in the media will or has caused our leaders to pause.  If decisive leadership prevailed, 9/11 may not have occurred.  Big "if", and I am using hindsight to judge the activities of our leaders, which is probably not correct.

Had we done anything to prevent 9/11, we probably would have been viewed as terrorists ourselves, pretty much like we are being viewed now.  Being proactive has its detractors.
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Offline Naso

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« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2004, 09:39:47 AM »
I understand, now.

:(

Yes, it's a sad moment of history.

Our leaders are still ignoring what is happening outside of the last preference poll.

This short sight is scaring.

Offline Gixer

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« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2004, 01:53:42 PM »
Iraq Uprising = Quagmire

(no matter how many Mosques you blow up it just makes the situation worse) What ever the tactical advantage was of killing a few gunmen in a Mosque it is far out weighed by the Strategic disadvantages.

What ever happend to the Cheney ideal?

"the streets in Basra and Baghdad are sure to erupt in joy in the same way the throngs in Kabul greeted the Americans."    

"The fight will be weeks rather then months"

"I think things have gotten so bad inside Iraq, from the standpoint of the Iraqi people, my belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators."

"you always plan for the worst," but he also said, "I don't think it would be that tough a fight; that is, I don't think there's any question that we would prevail."



...-Gixer

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2004, 02:14:03 PM »
I was just watching the last footage from the Bradley (I think) destroyed in Iraq, with wounded soldiers coming out of it and I just had to ask a question that may sound naive, but...

Where are all those RPGs coming from??

I mean, if those are from the last regime's army, they should have been seized by now, right?

And if they are importing them, then there's not enough border controls (by far). For cod's sake, it's an occupied country after all!

I don't know if it's the lack of intelligence or the lack of forces to control the borders, but I think more attention should be put in known arm dealers. I'm pretty sure that there are not many capable of delivering that much firepower.

As I said, it does sound naive, but nevertheless I'd like to be enlightened (no pun intended) by some of the posters versed in these subjects.

Daniel

Offline Westy

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« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2004, 02:24:22 PM »
"Where are all those RPGs coming from??"

 The Iraqui's buried enormous caches of weapons all over thier country.  The news media showed many of them found during and just after the invasion.  The reports were (as I recal)  that they believed those found were a decent but by no means large percentage of caches like that (smal arms, rpg's mines etc) went.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2004, 02:37:24 PM »
In regards to attacking mosques.


"In Baghdad, Brig.-Gen. Mark Kimmitt told CNN that a mosque, as a holy place, normally is protected from attack under the Geneva Convention. “However, it can be attacked when there is a military necessity brought on by the fact that the enemy is storing weapons, using weapons, inciting violence and executing violence from its grounds,” he said."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040407.wirkk0407/BNStory/Front/

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2004, 02:43:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
"Where are all those RPGs coming from??"

 The Iraqui's buried enormous caches of weapons all over thier country.  The news media showed many of them found during and just after the invasion.  The reports were (as I recal)  that they believed those found were a decent but by no means large percentage of caches like that (smal arms, rpg's mines etc) went.


Thanks Westy, that explains it.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2004, 02:44:21 PM »
There is also practically no border control around Iraq.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline bullett308

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« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2004, 03:13:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
There is also practically no border control around Iraq.


Heck there aint no boarder control around the southern U.S eitherLOL.