Author Topic: Constant Speed Props  (Read 3482 times)

Offline hitech

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Constant Speed Props
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2004, 09:50:31 AM »
I disagree bad boy, The lift still is what will determine which way it will fall. The wing will generate lift unless it is at 1 specific AOA so if any pitching occours the wing is what will generate the stable fall condition. All that is changing is which end of a dart the feathers on. In the nose up case the fethers are on the front side of the plane. Nose down case fethers are on the back.

HiTech

Offline Straiga

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torgue
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2004, 06:26:52 PM »
Torgue is a roll moment but to an aitplane its is countered by rudder not airleron.
  Lets take a P-51, its a tail dragger the nose sits in a high angle of attack to the relative wind which is paralle to the runway, P-factor, prop slip stream and gyro pressesion is all present at the onset of power application.I
  In AH on autotake off you see the airlerons move up and down at the intial onset of takeoff power, why are they moving I dont know and rudder doesnt move at all. 1. There is no airflow across the wing at zero airspeed to make airlerons effective. 2.Rudder is in the prop stream and is the major control device thats is controlling the airplane from a left turning motion at this time. 3.Elevator is also efective because of slip stream. Torgue is trying to roll the aircraft to the left along with P-Factor, prop slip stream and gyro-prossesion which moves to the right. Rudder is used to counter this moment airlerons are not effective still, not enough airspeed to counter anything. The left landing gear is now the pivet point and is bearring the brunt of the torgue. The plane is not going to roll over on the ground but will pull to the left because of drag and weight on the left main tire, it feals like the brake is applied. Power is applied smoothly if you run out of rudder and the planes still is pulling to the left get of the power there is nothing else thats going to stop you from going off the left side of the runway except this or cheating with brake on the right side.
  Around 45 kts airlerons become effective it varys on different airplanes, but this still doesnt counter torgue you cant roll an airplane still on the runway rudder is still used . Once you get airbourne everbody thinks the airplane is going to roll opposite direction of the torgue this is not true. Rudder maintains direction controll fine and roll moment. Now suppose we use airleron in stead of rudder after takeoff here is whats happens you roll the airleron to the right to counter torgue, the left airleron moves down increases angle of attack, increases cord length, increases lift and increases drag. Which slows the left wing, the right wing speeds up due to decrease in lift and drag now the airplane yaws to the left in the direction of the torgue if more airlerons is used to counter this left turning moment this situation gets worse the same is true on the runway. If your trying to maintain a heading after takeoff this is not possible the airplane keeps pulling to the left if you were not use right rudder while the airleron is used you would be cross cordinated the ball would not be centered and you could not hold a heading but drift only to the left.
  But in AH, airleron is only used with no rudder. Now if you took off with no autopilot all you need is rudder no need for airlerons. I dont understand by watching the airplane on takeoff in auto whats its trying to do. The airplane  moves left and right on the runway with airlerons deflection , on full power application, as the wheels start turning there is no airspeed to make airlerons effective no airflow, but the plane moves left and right anyway because of this, and the rudder doesnt even move. UHH! Please explain. By using no autopilot on takeoff this is a more realistic takeoff using rudder only with no need for airlerons for roll moment.
  Yes you get a roll moment from torgue but airplanes are designed with anti left turning moments. The right wing is mounted to fuselage at a higher angle of incidence then the left wing, the vertical stabilizer is mounted to the fuselage with more angle of attack to the left side of the airplane. the engine is mounted nose down and to the right from the center line of the airplane this is all to counter torgue, slip stream, P-factor.
  If you were to lose airlerons in flight, say the cables broke or something your roll moment can be aquired by rudder. Rudder is also used to cordinate the airplane in a turn, when you roll into the turn, you use rudder into the same direction of the turn because in a turn the lower wing always speeds up pushing the nose in the opposite direction of the turn you use rudder to bring the nose back in the direction of the turn. Airlerons only gives you bank angle for a turn, horizontal componite of lift is what turns an airplane.
 Crosswind takeoffs is were you use airleron for take off. You start with full airleron deflection into the wind as airspeed increase you minamise airleron as they get effective enough to kill the drift, use rudder to point the nose this is a forward slip take off. Once airbourne use rudder to hold heading and airleron is no longer required.
 Rudder is used to stop the roll moment on takeoff not airleron.
 Multi-engs have the same principle but a little differant in an engine out condition. I have a lot of high performance twin time (King Air 200 & 350) to name a few and my right foot gets a work out on takeoff.
 Thanks talk at you later.
 

 Hitech what kind of RV you have? I have help build and fly some friends with a RV - 6 and 8 funs toys.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 08:52:54 PM by Straiga »

Offline hitech

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Constant Speed Props
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2004, 09:01:39 AM »
The ailarons move simply because they are trying to keep the plane level. Even if they have no efect the auto pilot will try keep the plane level. The gain on the autopilot is increased as you slow down, so when just starting the take off roll they are extreamly sensitive. Think what would happen to a real plane if you turned on a wing leveler autopilot at take off.

The rudder is what the auto pilot is useing to keep the plane going straight down the runway. It's not doing anything different than if you were not using auto pilot.

The left yawing tendency that you correct with rudder, is not caused by engine torque, but by the other forces you describe. Engine torque produces a roll.

Rudder alone will not produce much roll , the resone you get a roll when using rudder is do primarly to diheadral of the wing, When you induce a yaw with the rudder the forward wing recieves a greater AOA than the trailing wing. This is what produces most of the roll.  The other componet , but this is the small effect is because the rudder is typicly position above the Roll cg axis. Hence inducing a roll torque.  With straight wings almost no rolll can be observed, with planes with a lot of dihedral a full 360 barrel roll can be complete with rudder. Done this with a lot of RC planes.

Quote
you use rudder into the same direction of the turn because in a turn the lower wing always speeds up pushing the nose in the opposite direction of the turn you use rudder to bring the nose back in the direction of the turn.


Wouldn't that be the high wing speeds up?

There are other forces at work here also, the ball simply messures the side force on an airplane, when in a steady state turn there is a slip created from different directions on the air plane, i.e forward section and rear section recieving different directions of air flow, just to mention one. Centering the ball balances all these yaw forces along with the difference in drag of the wings.

As to how wings are attached, AH has those setups, in AHII one of the things we fined tuned was to be able to put more detail into wing washout, hence ruducing tip stalls, and a finer adjust ment on wing twist to counter torque.

My toy:

RV8 IO360 200hp with inverted oil system. Looks like it will be a great evening to do some more cuban 8 and slow roll practice.


HiTech

Offline Straiga

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Constant Speed Props
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2004, 04:55:31 AM »
The high sided wing will slow up due to the airleron, its  moves down and increases the angle of attack and increases lift, there for increase drag which slows the wing down, the nose goes to the opposite side of the turn, there for you need rudder to be cordinated. The lower wing is just opposite.

 Hey Hi tech the RV-8 is a great flying airplane. I have about 30 hrs in one. Good machine.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2004, 05:02:36 AM by Straiga »

Offline hitech

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« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2004, 09:48:15 AM »
Your desribing the rolling into a turn, once in a steady state turn the hi side / outside wing is travling further do to the fact it is on the outside of a circle. Hence it is travaling faster.


HiTech

Offline Straiga

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Constant Speed Props
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2004, 04:39:00 PM »
Yes I was talking about the intial turn once your in the turn and bank angle is established all the control surfaces are neutral and cordinated except for elevator which is continually maintaining altitude. Once your in the turn the horizontal componate of lift turns the airplane, elevator is used in the turn because of decreasing vertical componate of lift.

 Torgue effect roll is managed by rudder, both in single engine and multi-engine opperations even multi-engine with single engine failure. Whether you have dyhedrial or not.
 Rudder is very effective it sits in the prop slip stream. Mutli-engine airplanes have a very big vertical stablizer for single engine opperations.
 
 I have an extensive library from basic flight training to advanced aerodynamics and there is nothing that I have ever read that airleron is used to counter torgue roll moment. If you have some information that says different send it to me.

Offline hitech

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« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2004, 07:27:52 PM »
So why do they put the twist in the wings if not to counter engine torque?


Also in a turn the controls are rairly nuetrual.


HiTech

Offline Rasker

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Constant Speed Props
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2004, 01:41:36 PM »
so Hitech, just what exactly do we get for gifting you the $8,995 Garmin 430.  And how about the $40 Scotch whiskey? :)

Offline hitech

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« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2004, 03:13:03 PM »
Garmin: How about your choice from our list of planes to do next. And free arobatic RV8 rides for life when ever your in my area?

Scotch: Free office tour.


HiTech

Offline Samiam

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Constant Speed Props
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2004, 04:09:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Garmin: How about your choice from our list of planes to do next.


This has me wondering what it would take just to see the list...

Offline Rasker

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Constant Speed Props
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2004, 01:19:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Garmin: How about your choice from our list of planes to do next. And free arobatic RV8 rides for life when ever your in my area?

Scotch: Free office tour.


HiTech


Hmm, where is your area?  I might move there! And, I warn you, I come from a long lived family.  :)  Btw, and pardon my ignorance,what is a RV8?

Offline gripen

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Constant Speed Props
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2004, 03:57:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Straiga
Yes I was talking about the intial turn once your in the turn and bank angle is established all the control surfaces are neutral and cordinated except for elevator which is continually maintaining altitude. Once your in the turn the horizontal componate of lift turns the airplane, elevator is used in the turn because of decreasing vertical componate of lift.


Straiga,
In the continous level turn the ailerons must be used to keep angle of bank constant. If the ailerons are in the neutral position and the elevator is used to keep altitude constant then the angle of the bank will reduce and the plane will come slowly out of the turn (assuming that the rudder is used just to keep "the ball in the middle"). Basicly during a continous banked turn the plane has a  continous rolling moment.

gripen

Offline Straiga

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Constant Speed Props
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2004, 02:59:44 AM »
Hey Hitech, The King Air 200 I fly part time has two Garmen GNS 430s GPS slaved with an RS-232 to the autopilot and an Avidyne TAWS with terrain mapping feature. There good equipment just wish it had Vnav.  

Gripen, Whats your CFI # or class certificate you hold. Im interested.
 The DC-10 does great steep turns, roll it in to 45 degrees of bank, 4 1/2 degrees nose up and manage altitude with a little a back pressure. It holds bank angle quit well. You could also trim the back pressure and watch it turn all by itself, untill you roll it out yourself.

Offline gripen

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Constant Speed Props
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2004, 04:20:57 PM »
Straiga,
I have no CFI certificate. I'm merely saying that a plane has a rolling moment during turn, that is a physical fact.

gripen

Offline Straiga

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Constant Speed Props
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2004, 10:22:56 PM »
Gripen,
 Its true every airplane has a roll moment, but designers build stable and unstable airplanes in the roll moment due to the mission of the airplane.  I teach student pilots and show them how a stable airplane can be stable in turn hands off. Go rent an airplane and try it. We can write back and forth about aero properties all we want but its hard to listen to a teacher, teaching you how to fly an airplane if he has never learned how to fly an airplane himself.

 Its hard to teach stundents how to fly real airplanes who have never flown before. Not only do they have to know aerodynamics of an airplane but regs, airspace, navigation, weather and a hole list of things to pass a FAA check ride and oral exam.
 I think computers pilots would be worse to teach. They already know everything and they wanna be a pilot, but the only way they will know how to fly is from the computer, which most airplane sims are about 60 percent accurate from the way an real airplane flys.
 Its like the tiger tank in AH trying to fly with its tracks shot off shouldnt it be just a pet rock, or the way two airplanes run head on into each other both planes should be crippled right!  wrong not in AH, now why is that. Its a computer game its crued simulation and is not real life but some people thinks its an accurate reflection.
 The airlines uses sims to teach us procedures in case the real thing happens but these sims dont fly like the real thing, its a close simulation. All the switches and dials are real thats it. Also not every real airplane of the same make flys the same either.

Later