DB601 Detailed Data

[BPNZ]

Hi Pyro and everybody,
First time poster, but long time snooper

I think I've got some of what you are looking for including Messerschmitt curves for DB601A1 & N.   These include fuel consumption and exhaust thrust for the A1.

I also have a part of a 1942 Manual for the DB601A1 and what I consider is a reasonable understanding of the different versions of the DB601A - been talking to Butch .

I'll look around for an email address to send it to.

Sorry for mucking up and accidentally starting a new thread.   Posts should go to the main topic.

Cheers
BPNZ

[Batz]

Welcome to the board!!!

Here is Pyro's email addy dougb@hitechcreations.com

[VO101_Isegrim]

Are you sure the 1942 manual is for 601, not 605A-0 and A-1 ?

I would be interested in the 601A manual though!

[HoHun]

Hi and welcome on this board! :-)

>I also have a part of a 1942 Manual for the DB601A1 and what I consider is a reasonable understanding of the different versions of the DB601A - been talking to Butch .

Well, I guess you're aware I actually disagree with Butch in one point :-)

Here's my list of major DB601 variants:

DB601A-0: Predated DB601A-1
DB601A-1 (Bf 109V15): Weird prototype with manual two-speed drive
DB601A-1 (4.0 km): Early series with 4.0 km full throttle height
DB601A-1 (4.5 km): Late series with 4.5 km full throttle height
DB601Aa: Improved A-1 with higher boost pressure*
DB601N: Improved A-1 with greater high-altitude performance, higher rpm wasn't usable operationally
DB601E: big step forward though it didn't reach full projected performance

* Point of disagreement with Butch

By the way, I've reached the conclusion that the most often quoted speed figure for the Bf 110C-4/B is for a DB601N with GM-1 injection. I think that's rather strange as I've not found anything on GM-1 on the Bf 110. What do you think about this?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[BPNZ]

Hi Everyone,
Seems like all the posts are coming here......oh well, onward.

Thanks for his address Batz.   Second load is on its way.      BTW Pyro, I think all the stuff is OK to upload to this board for discussion.   Given the volume picking the most interesting bits might be best.

Isegrim:
>I would be interested in the 601A manual >though!
More than happy to send it to you, as well as other graphs etc.   I thought you already had it as I have seen you post a similar graph lately.   Have your email from your site.   Will send something in next couple of days.


Hohun:
>DB601A-0: Predated DB601A-1
I only have the post war second hand data sheet for this, that you have seen.   Do you have any more documents?

>DB601A-1 (Bf 109V15): Weird prototype with manual two-speed drive
Makes sense if the hydraulic coupling wasn't ready in time for the test.

>DB601A-1 (4.0 km): Early series with 4.0 km >full throttle height
Early production version in E1/E3s.   Would give vmax at about 4.4km?

>DB601A-1 (4.5 km): Late series with 4.5 km >full throttle height
Main production example probably from mid? 1940.   This was the version in British tests on captured Bf109Es DG200 & AE479(must have been re-engined after French tests, as British report implies both have longer defuser vanes).   Still don't have the full Morgan & Morris Report though.

>DB601Aa: Improved A-1 with higher boost >pressure*
Model that may have predated A-1 but has quite low production numbers.   If this engine has higher outputs than A-1 then why wasn't it the standard high production Luftwaffe engine.   Its output appears to be much better at low/mid altitude without being much worse higher.   We see the Aa designation often in association with exported aircraft - remember Swiss propellor graph.

How could it sustain more boost to create the extra HP when its fuel quality requirements were less than normal B4?   You don't give a better engine to your potential enermy.

>DB601N: Improved A-1 with greater >high-altitude performance, higher rpm >wasn't usable operationally
May have been used by very small numbers of Bf109E4Ns late Sept/ early Oct 1940.

>DB601E: big step forward though it didn't >reach full projected performance
This version has already been discussed.

* Point of disagreement with Butch

I just think Butch's conclusion is more likely given what we know now.   That might change in the further.   What really makes things harder is them not saying the power setting used.   This reduces us to using heights and comparisons to make conclusions.



>By the way, I've reached the conclusion that the most
>often quoted speed figure for the Bf 110C-4/B is for a
>DB601N with GM-1 injection. I think that's rather
>strange as I've not found anything on GM-1 on the Bf >110. >What do you think about this?

I agree with you.   The much quoted 349mph (562km/h @ 7km) would be an impossibly high attitude for Vmax even with a 601N, as the static rating is 1175PS @ 4.9km @ 1.35ata.   Higher boost would be at lower altitude (about 4.6km @ 1.42ata?).   GM-1 must have been installed.   I only have information that GM-1 was used in small numbers in Bf110G series.

Another book I have says for Bf110C1 with 2 x DB601 A-1 1050hp Takeoff (strange rating):
475km/h @ SL   540km/h @ 6,000m  Max. speed
422km/h @ SL   490km/h @ 5,000m  High speed cruise

I think these figure might be possible, but still seem too high an altitude to me.

Regards
Brian

[VO101_Isegrim]

BPNZ,

thank you for your offer! I am indeed interested in every and all information! I don`t know what email you have for me, but I guess it`s a hotmail one. It would be better to send those to executor@index.hu, as this latter has 5 meg store limit vs. 2 on Hotmail, and I could receive things more reliable to that.

Oh, and please state if you are looking for something of special interest for you, I will check my archived files..

[Pyro]

Hi BPNZ,

I got the files, thanks a lot.  If you want me to host them for download, I can do that, just let me know.

Hohun, what's the disagreement over the higher setting that you have with Butch?

[Wilbus]

Hey BPNZ, would it be possible for you to send them to me aswell? Would be greatly appriciated!!

Or if Pyro can post them so we can download, might be even better!

[HoHun]

Hi Brian,

>>DB601A-0: Predated DB601A-1
>I only have the post war second hand data sheet for this, that you have seen.   Do you have any more documents?

No. These documents seem to be quite accurate, though.

>>DB601A-1 (4.0 km): Early series with 4.0 km >full throttle height
>Early production version in E1/E3s.   Would give vmax at about 4.4km?

4.5 km according to most documents.

>>DB601Aa: Improved A-1 with higher boost >pressure*

>If this engine has higher outputs than A-1 then why wasn't it the standard high production Luftwaffe engine.  

As it seems to have been able to tolerate higher power settings than the A-1, I'd speculate it used prohibitive amounts of strategic materials. I've just found a mention that some variants of the Do 17 were equipped with DB601Aa engines, but I haven't confirmed that yet.

>We see the Aa designation often in association with exported aircraft - remember Swiss propellor graph.

Roger. Of course, you're aware of Bf 109E-7 (Werk-Nr. 3523) with DB601Aa (Werk-Nr. 11220), which shows that not all Aa engines went into the export. I don't believe the second "a" really meant "Ausfuhr" as similar designations were used for the Jumo 210Da/Ea and the DB603Aa which as far as I know were never exported.

>How could it sustain more boost to create the extra HP when its fuel quality requirements were less than normal B4?   You don't give a better engine to your potential enermy.

>>DB601N: Improved A-1 with greater >high-altitude performance, higher rpm >wasn't usable operationally
>May have been used by very small numbers of Bf109E4Ns late Sept/ early Oct 1940.

In response to the same question that Galland answered with "I'd like to have my wing equipped with Spitfires", Mölders had requested from Göring "Messerschmitts with more powerful engines". (Unlike Galland's request, Mölders' was granted :-)

I guess this means that the first DB601N-engined Messerschmitts were already at the front so Mölders knew that he was asking for something realistic.

(Am RLM document dated 01.11.1940 shows 496 DB601N-engined Emils of different subvariants delivered by 31.10.1940.)

>GM-1 must have been installed.   I only have information that GM-1 was used in small numbers in Bf110G series.

So we've got another enigma here :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[HoHun]

Hi Pyro,

>Hohun, what's the disagreement over the higher setting that you have with Butch?

Well, according to Butch, the DB601Aa is a DB601A-0 with increased power. He concludes that from the low full throttle height.

In my opinion, the DB601Aa is a DB601A-1 with increased boost. I've deducted that by mapping the data points for the various power settings at 2400 rpm and the respective full throttle heights. They're on a straight line, coinceding with the DB601A-1's power graph, thus my conclusion. The low full throttle height for the maximum power setting of course results from the increased boost pressure.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/hohun/DB601A-1vsAa.gif

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[BPNZ]

Hi everyone,

Pyro:
>If you want me to host them for download, I can do that, just let me know.
Yes, I don't think there is any problem with that.   That should work for you,  Wilbus
Is it Ring that has a site with quite a few original WWII documents?

More to come.   I take it you are interested in Bf109E data also?   This becomes difficult, as I have not seen any data set where we know that it was a factory fresh model at full power.    Hohun has been doing some work on this 'problem' also.


Hohun:
I thought it might have been exhaust thrust added into the total, but going by the British graph of the Aa that component would be about 100 HP (not PS), so the difference is not enough to be this cause.   I still find it rather coincidental that the A0 and the Aa have the same altitude ratings.   The mystery continues.   Someone might be sitting on the solution.

Regards
Brian

[Wilbus]

That would be exelent BPNZ

Pyro?

[Pyro]

Here's the files from BPNZ.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/DB 601 Series.zip
http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/DB601A, N & E.zip
http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/DB601Aa Manual.zip
http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/Part of 1942 DB601A Manual.zip

[Wilbus]

Thanks both of you!

[HoHun]

Hi again,

>In response to the same question that Galland answered with "I'd like to have my wing equipped with Spitfires", Mölders had requested from Göring "Messerschmitts with more powerful engines". (Unlike Galland's request, Mölders' was granted :-)

>I guess this means that the first DB601N-engined Messerschmitts were already at the front so Mölders knew that he was asking for something realistic.

>(Am RLM document dated 01.11.1940 shows 496 DB601N-engined Emils of different subvariants delivered by 31.10.1940.)

I've found more information on that topic:

The Generalstab der Luftwaffe on July 19, 1940, mentions that currently all DB601N engines are used to convert Bf 110 aircraft at the front, so that the conversion of the Bf 109 can't be continued. So far, one Gruppe of Bf 109 has been converted.

On August 9, the conversion of the Bf 109 Gruppe is confirmed and it's mentioned that the conversion of 3 Gruppen of Bf 110 has been ordered, stopping further Bf 109 conversion.

On May 24 and 31, the Generalstab had mentioned that 1000 DB601N were to be produced until the end of 1940.

(All from "Messerschmitt Bf 110, Me 210, Me 410" by Mankau/Petrick)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)