Author Topic: WTG Georgie! (Read 5750 times)

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #135 on:** April 16, 2004, 08:01:37 PM »

Its funny, I read this entire thread and I'm not really sure what the **** this last page is about. I'm bored as ****, at home on a friday night because my car is a le suck and about to fall apart. So I'll try one more time to re-iterate my one post to this thread on page 2.

Curly is noting that the tax breaks are giving a crap load of money back to people, whether they be low/middle/high income class brackets. The higher your income, the more you recieved back. Makes sense, right?

Well, then we run into this little doozey: We've got a federal government thats expanding, this costs money. We've got 2 operations over seas with a crap load of troops, and a crap load of troop movements, and a crap load of troop activation, and probably a crap load of other things I'm missing here - this costs a whole ****load of money. We've got a national debt in the trillions now, and its growing like a high malignent potential tumor.

On top of that, we are getting money back... tell me exactly how this works with a huge amount of federal spending going on?

Today you'll be nice and happy because you got some money in the mail, meanwhile the debt is growing. The dollar's worth is falling faster than someone doing a nose dive off the empire state building.

It has nothing to do with taxes and how that all works - it has everything to do with giving these faux tax breaks in the face of greatly increased federal spending with a huge national debt.

Ding! Fries are done.
-SW

Mini D · « **Reply #136 on:** April 16, 2004, 08:11:59 PM »

You pull a country out of a recession by spending and cutting taxes. Yes... both at the same time. Just go back through history to see this for yourself. And guess what... the deficit grew every single time.

There isn't a need to cure the deficit.

It's really all this whole silly thread is boiling down to... the feel to reduce the deficit vs pull out of a recession.

MiniD

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #137 on:** April 16, 2004, 08:25:34 PM »

This isn't the same world, let alone US, that history had.

Back then, all the money was held within the US - circulated here. Yes, you only recieve tax cuts and breaks if you file taxes... but nevertheless, a lot of our money is leaving our borders.

Now we have migrant workers that send the money made in the US back home, and outsourced jobs where the money goes to another country - and lots of it.

Time to revise and rethink, you can't keep relying on the old ways from a different time when today is far different.
-SW

mietla · « **Reply #138 on:** April 16, 2004, 09:35:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKcurly
No sweat.

curly

Thank you... and now back to the topic.

I have no problem with balancing the budget, and I would be willing go forgo my tax cut to do that, but... It will never, ever work. As soon as you give them a extra penny in order to decrease the deficit, they'll piss it away on some other very important project (like study of the sexual habits of a rat, or some important art exhibit involving excrement) and keep the deficit intact.

If you think of, the deficit and a massive debt seems to be the only thing that seems to slow Congress' will to spend.

Don't know why, but it works.

Mini D · « **Reply #139 on:** April 16, 2004, 10:06:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Time to revise and rethink, you can't keep relying on the old ways from a different time when today is far different.

The problem is coming up with a new way. You can pretend things would be better if you did them differently, but based on what data? Based on what history? None... nodda... zilch.

The more things change... the more they stay the same.

MiniD

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #140 on:** April 16, 2004, 10:20:02 PM »

If *I* did them differently, everyone would be ****ed and I'd be the richest man in the world.

Now, if most realised voting a party based on pre-determined rhetoric that is obviously null and void in this administration and their party's typical main points - then maybe we could have a worthwhile 4 years. The past 11 (and 3 1/2 months) ain't been the best, the only thing the last administration brought was surfing on an industry boom - and the surf broke the past two years they were on their way out.

You want to look at data and history for a new type of world that is completely new. This **** just ain't happened yet, kind of like inventing the bridge - its new, and some people best be figuring it out.
-SW

Mini D · « **Reply #141 on:** April 16, 2004, 10:36:41 PM »

What hasn't happened yet? A recession?

You've spent an entire post saying absolutely nothing wulfie. Saying "it has to be done different" doesn't mean ****. You don't know it does, you don't know it doesn't.

The thing you really don't know is if pulling out of a recession is more important than reducing the national deficit right now. I think pulling out of a recession is more important in the here and now.

MiniD

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #142 on:** April 16, 2004, 10:58:53 PM »

What hasn't happened yet is the new world we all live in - the global one. Its sort of been there, but the past 4 or 6 years has really seen it come to fruition. We are now at a point where national borders only extend to the physical land boundaries - the economy has become completely global. This can be seen by the outsourcing of what used to be American jobs that were fairly well paid, to India - and in a few limited cases China - and now going back to past incidents of what worked best are completely different. With a global economy, our debt becomes a bit of problem - because our dollar means less around the world.

We can all sit around and say, ah well we don't really know what to do other than it needs to change and well since you don't know then you don't know ****... in the end, it will mean something. Most likely a failed economy and nation.

The recession was nice to temporarily begin a recovery from, but at the same time we have seen an increase in price in necessary goods - anything oil related. Gas for one thing, since the majority of Americans commute.

Sure, I don't have the answers. You know me virtually and the extent of experience I could have had in this world, it ain't much. I'm just stating my point on this, because I sure as **** don't want to deal with bread lines and rationed food when/if I have a family.
-SW

AKcurly · « **Reply #143 on:** April 17, 2004, 12:10:19 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by mietla

I have no problem with balancing the budget, and I would be willing go forgo my tax cut to do that, but... It will never, ever work. As soon as you give them a extra penny in order to decrease the deficit, they'll piss it away on some other very important project (like study of the sexual habits of a rat, or some important art exhibit involving excrement) and keep the deficit intact.

If you think of, the deficit and a massive debt seems to be the only thing that seems to slow Congress' will to spend.

Don't know why, but it works.

Think of it this way, mietla. One of the above responses cited someone with $70k gross, making home and car payments & so on. They favorably compared this situation to the federal debt. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Here's why.

Mr. $70k gross has his debt under control. He knows that in X years his home will be paid out; he knows that in Y years his car will be out. While his gross is approximately the same, his total liability is decreasing. He is making periodic payments towards a profitable future.

The federal deficit is accelerating (and has been for most of Bush's term.) We are no longer at a point where we can see the federal deficit being reduced, much less when it will be paid off.

Fully 17% of our tax revenue is required to service the interest on our federal deficit. When you add the insult that the federal deficit is actually increasing, it seems clear to me that a massive financial adjustment of some type is store for the USA.

All of us are familiar with individuals who spend more than they make. They borrow from banks until the banks won't lend more; they max their credit cards out. Eventually, they lose their house and car.

I'm not sure what the federal equivalent is of losing a house or car, but I'll bet me and you won't like it.

American politicians (both democrats and republicans) have forgotten that all financial institutions, including the USA's ability to generate revenue (taxes) have limits. Our ability to fight wars, explore space, maintain surplus military establishments is limited.

We're a rich nation and we can do a lot, but we do have limits. Providing tax cuts while the federal deficit is accelerating reminds me of a bankrupt guy taking his last credit card, withdrawing all possible cash and giving it to his friends under the theory that someone will like him because of this and help him out.

curly

mietla · « **Reply #144 on:** April 17, 2004, 01:39:02 AM »

Looks like all of us have the same goal, return sanity and purpose to the feds. The differrence between us is, how to do it.

And the real problem is, none of our proposed solution would work.

My solution is, take all the money form the drunk, let him wither and sober up cold turkey (nothing we tried before worked, why should we try any more).

Your solution is, give him a "last" chance. We'll pay off his debt, and he'll be appreciative and in return will straighten up.

Guess what...

We are all screwed. The founding Father created a little cute Gremlin. They had to create something, and we all owe them a debt for putting a lot of effort into making a Gremlin tiny.

Give and take a couple of centuries, FDR, LBJ, both Bushes and a lot of "greater good" ideas, and voila...

lazs2 · « **Reply #145 on:** April 17, 2004, 10:04:03 AM »

Ok curly fair enough... I am for a "conservative" spending program myself But.... I see no reason for higher taxes if we are still spending so much... I believe in a strong defense.. If we need money for defense then it should come out of the other 70% of government spending. We should allways strive to lower taxes.

As for corporations.... we are the corporations.. all of us that work have investments in corporations and profit when they do. Even insurance and health care... if the rates go down we all gain.. Well... all of us who are paying our way.

thing is... you will never convince any of us who have been around for a few adminestratins that raising taxes will send that money right to the debt.. it may take a few years but the government takes that increase and spends it along with about 50% additional on new social programs.
lazs

AKcurly · « **Reply #146 on:** April 17, 2004, 03:05:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
Ok curly fair enough... I am for a "conservative" spending program myself But.... I see no reason for higher taxes if we are still spending so much... I believe in a strong defense.. If we need money for defense then it should come out of the other 70% of government spending. We should allways strive to lower taxes.

Couldn't agree more, Lazs - of course lowering taxes necessarily requires the feds to rein in spending.

curly

lazs2 · « **Reply #147 on:** April 18, 2004, 09:55:53 AM »

yep curly... we agree but... I have been around about as long as you and it has been my experiance that if you give more money they will fund more social programs not pay anything off... We would be much better off if we simply cut taxes and forced em to make do. We would certainly not be worse off. Presidents would still spend in a war situation..

An example.. One of the many branchs of the EPA around here claimed that due to lack of funding they were gonna close the doors and no longer regulate and protect us from the boogey men.... they were also gonna stop their certification program (mine and my workers certifications that are required for employment) I laughed my bellybutton off...

no less than three semi private certification groups stepped forward and offererd their far superior programs... The EPA suddenly "found" enough to continue with it's half assed program.

We woulda been FAR better off without em.

lazs

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #148 on:** April 19, 2004, 03:14:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2

We need to spend less... that is the real solution. Tax cuts are an excellent way to start.

lazs

And let's continue with not pissing away 87 Billion to Iraq, 15 billion to the airline industry, and 16 million per day to Israel. Let them all fend for themselves.

screw the Welfare states. Damn Spendocrats...

mietla · « **Reply #149 on:** April 19, 2004, 03:43:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Red Tail 444
And let's continue with not pissing away 87 Billion to Iraq, 15 billion to the airline industry, and 16 million per day to Israel. Let them all fend for themselves.

screw the Welfare states. Damn Spendocrats...

I'd go for that, but you are talking peanuts here. A 100 billion? laughable. Cut the socialist wealth redistribution which is strangling us and you are saving 1.5 trillion easy. Not only we could eliminate the deficit, we could actually pay the debt in a couple of years.