Why are we supporting Israel?

[Habu]

We are supporting Israel because it is the right thing to do.

Forget religion. Just look at the two sides and who is the modern free responsible side and who is the repressed corrupt violent side.

Before any of you idiots say Israel is violent because they kill so many and they are not better than the PLO etc etc consider this.

Hamas and the PLO are sending suicide bombers over to try to kill any person they can. If Israel decided to adopt similar tactics they could wipe out the entire population of the West Bank and Gaza in a couple of days.

Once side has the ability to do so and shows remarkable restraint. The other side does not have the ability and uses every chance it can to try and kill innocents.

They are only the same in a very twisted mind.

[Nashwan]

Here's another snippet: the "West Bank", "Golan Heights" and "Gaza" were areas that belonged to Jordan Syria and Egypt before those countries joined together and attacked Israel, with the stated purpose to either kill every Israeli or drive them into the sea.

The Golan was part of Syria, but the West Bank and Gaza were part of British mandated Palestine, not Jordan or Egypt. They were occupied by Jordan and Egypt following the war.

Now, I'm not taking sides here, but that's the crux of the problem, is'nt it? Who has the right to the land called Israel?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Answer: the people who live there and participate in the democratic society that exists there.

What about the people who live there but aren't allowed to participate in the democratic society?

My conclusion: The Israelis aren't seeking to persecute or exclude anyone. They're willing to accept the Palestinians as neighbors and citizens.

Israel is not prepared to accept large numbers of Palestinians as citizens, if that leads to Jews no longer being a majority in the state of Israel.

That's why Israel has never annexed the West Bank and Jordan, because then it would have to give the Palestinians citizenship, and the Palestinians would then outnumber the Jews.

[culero]

Originally posted by Nashwan
The Golan was part of Syria, but the West Bank and Gaza were part of British mandated Palestine, not Jordan or Egypt. They were occupied by Jordan and Egypt following the war.

No argument, but I was referring to the status quo that existed in the early 1970s, and the claims that Israel is illegally occupying those areas now. It was as I said at the time Israel took possession, and for the reasons I stated.

Originally posted by Nashwan
What about the people who live there but aren't allowed to participate in the democratic society?



Israel is not prepared to accept large numbers of Palestinians as citizens, if that leads to Jews no longer being a majority in the state of Israel.

That's why Israel has never annexed the West Bank and Jordan, because then it would have to give the Palestinians citizenship, and the Palestinians would then outnumber the Jews.

Again, as I said, IMO the Israeli justification for being there is that those areas are the bounty of war, to be used as buffer zones from repeat attacks. I'd say that as such, they have no obligation to annex and extend citizenship to the inhabitants.

OTOH, I *do* agree the Palestinians deserve their rights, and its why I agree we should be adamant with the Israelis that these issues must be addressed.

I don't claim to know what the best specific solution(s) is/are, but my instinct tends toward a separate Palestinian sovereign state.

Resolution is going to be difficult given the tensions and distrust that exist.

One thing is for sure, so long as the Arabs utilize terror attacks as a tactic and espouse the elimination of Israel as a goal, I for one will always give the benefit of the doubt to the Israelis. Token or not, they do at least grant some Palestinians citizenship, that's much more than they are being offered in return.

culero

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by culero
Answer: the people who live there and participate in the democratic society that exists there.

Clue: there was *no* state there before Israel established one.

Clue: last time I looked, roughly 20% of Israel's citizens were non-Jewish folks of Palestinian descent.

My conclusion: The Israelis aren't seeking to persecute or exclude anyone. They're willing to accept the Palestinians as neighbors and citizens. They're just not disposed to take any **** from people whose avowed purpose is to wipe them out.


culero

ooOOOooo Dangerous Dangerous subject!

 Weird , Had this very conversation with my mother and my uncles and Aunt (father s side and from different schools)and they would strongly dissagree that there was no  Palestine prior to  the formation or reformation as the case may be of Isreal after WWII.
They all went to school prior to and during WWII and all absolutely and Totally INSIST that they were taught  in school about Palestine and that there Was indeed a palestine Prior to the recreation of Isreal.
This conversation took place after watching someone on FNC claiming it never was which prompted one uncle to call the claim "revisionist BS" (hisw woirds not mine Though I've met many others who have pretty much said the same thing)
I just find it interesting how there can be two very definately different views on history


On another note I saw a rather interesting program a while back that dealt with the current situation. and i'd heard this before too but never quite considered it in this light.

it is predicted that at the current birth rate that within the next 20-25 years  Palestinian and muslam isrealies will well outnumber jewish isrealies.
 All they need do then is demand the same one person one vote system that we have in the rest of the democratic world (Which from what I understand they do not have now for non jews.) To place Isreal on the real horns of a delemma.
That being if they give the non jews the vote  they would risk giving up being a "jewish state" Which they are not likely to want to do.
on the other hand
To deny them the right of one person one vote would alienate them from the rest of the democratic world including the USA.

should be interesting to say the least to see how it all works out.

I am neither for or against the palistenians or Isrealies.
I can agree with the arguements and dissagree with the methods of both sides.
And as far as the methods used I do not see one side as being any more innocent then the other. Both sides have very dirty hands
 I do see their current problems as being a a vicious circle forever feeding off one another each reaping what they sow.

[DREDIOCK]

Very well put.
 I well remember the tension being so thick you could cut it with a knife during the press statement when they said they would not respond.
I remember thinking to myself during it and saying to myself"c'mon dont let pride over ride logic"

Thing is the absolute best and most devestating attack Isreal could have made on Saddam during that war is path they chose.
Which is the attack they didnt make.
Sometimes not using the power you have can more powerful then in using it.
they attacked by not attacking.

Originally posted by Tarmac
In Gulf War 1, we asked them to stay out.  Remember all the tension as Saddam launched SCUDS into Tel Aviv, and the Israelis had the strength not to retaliate?  If they had, our coalition (specifically the Arab members) would have fallen apart.  We needed those bases in Saudi Arabia and other nearby Muslim countries.  

The Israelis did their part in the first Gulf War.  They sat there and took it because they were asked to, and because they realized that it was important for the overall cause.  I can imagine no better ally than one who will have its nose bloodied repeatedly and simply turn the other cheek for the sake of its allies.  

I'd bet they were asked to sit out Gulf War 2 for the same reasons.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Thing is the absolute best and most devestating attack Isreal could have made on Saddam during that war is path they chose.
Which is the attack they didnt make.
Sometimes not using the power you have can more powerful then in using it.
they attacked by not attacking.

they used it when they had to and blew his nuke plant to bits when no one else had the balls or desire to do so...

[culero]

DRED -

You're right, its a deep subject. First off, I'm talking MODERN history (more on that qualification later).

Your uncle was right, Palestine did exist. However, as I said, it wasn't a "state", as recognized by international convention. It was a territory administered by Great Britain after World War One, before which it was a possession of Turkey.

From http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html :

The Palestine  problem became an international issue  towards the end of the First World War with the disintegration of the Turkish Ottoman Empire.  Palestine was among the several former Ottoman Arab territories which were placed  under the administration of Great Britain  under the Mandates System adopted by the League of Nations pursuant to the League's Covenant (Article 22) .

All but one of these Mandated Territories became fully independent States, as anticipated. The exception was Palestine where, instead of being limited to "the rendering of administrative assistance and advice" the Mandate had as a primary objective the implementation of the "Balfour Declaration" issued by the British Government in 1917,  expressing support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people".

During the  years of the Palestine Mandate, from 1922 to 1947, large-scale Jewish immigration from abroad, mainly from Eastern Europe took place, the numbers swelling in the 1930s with the notorious Nazi persecution of Jewish populations. Palestinian demands for independence and resistance to Jewish immigration led to a rebellion in 1937, followed by continuing terrorism and violence from both sides during and immediately after World War II. Great Britain tried to implement various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. In 1947, Great Britain in frustration turned the problem over to the United Nations.

OTOH, to be fair, its history dates to ancient times:

http://www.usd.edu/erp/Palestine/history.htm

The kicker here is that it was known as Judea until the Romans practiced a little ethnic cleansing....hence the Israeli claims of rightfully returning to their homeland

culero

[bozon]

Originally posted by muckmaw
Interesting tid bit..

Is it true that the nation of Israel is only 15% of the original area known as Palestine!

I had no idea, but according to my reading, the bulk of what was Palestine became Trans Jordan, later Jordan.

If this is correct, the Arabs already have 85% of Palestine under their control.

Of course, this came a from a very biased websight, so I am asking for confirmation.

Very intersting history Israel has..

Completly untrue.
You can argue forever on where are the borders on "Palestine", but in no way Israel is only 15% of it.

The "truth" is that there is no real border to Palestine. oh, mandatoric Palestine some would say - well, some of those borders were a result of the "Sikes-Pico" (probably misspelled their names) agreement between Britain and France from 1915 that devided the area between them (note that this is BEFORE they even conquered it from the Turks).
anyway those borders were much closer to the current borders of after 1967 then before.

Bozon

[bozon]

Thing is the absolute best and most devestating attack Isreal could have made on Saddam during that war is path they chose.

Most people don't know how close Israel was to joining Gulf war I.
The Pilots were already going out to their planes.

The other Bush really had to put some pressure on prime minister Itzhak Shamir to stop it.

Bozon

[ravells]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Very well put.
 I well remember the tension being so thick you could cut it with a knife during the press statement when they said they would not respond.
I remember thinking to myself during it and saying to myself"c'mon dont let pride over ride logic"

Thing is the absolute best and most devestating attack Isreal could have made on Saddam during that war is path they chose.
Which is the attack they didnt make.
Sometimes not using the power you have can more powerful then in using it.
they attacked by not attacking.

err...right. so the best thing the Israelis did during gulf war 1 was *not* use nuclear weapons in a country in which Amercian army personnel were next door to, and not make the rest of the world decide that for the sake of a couple of scuds they would use a nuclear deterrent.

Well, phew, good thing we didn't use nuclear arms against the Argentinians, then wasn't it? I wonder how 'forgiving' the Americans would have been then?

Actually while we're on that subject...what did America do for the UK durin the Falklands conflict? Arn't we your allies too? Frankly, we have done a hell of a lot more than the Israelies have for your country in terms of international shoulder to shoulder posturing.  Don't see you pouring millions of dollars into our economy.

Crap argument...do better next time.


Ravs

[edit] writhe which way you want on this argument but the fact is that you have a very strong Jewish lobby which call the shots in your country. If Israel really was 'America compliant' we would have had peace in the middle east by now.  [edit]

[edit #2] Interesting you were thinking that about Israel...I was thinking the same thing about America after 9/11 when I saw pictures in our papers of car stickers in the US saying 'Nuke 'em'
[edit #2]

[NUKE]

Originally posted by ravells
err...right. so the best thing the Israelis did during gulf war 1 was *not* use nuclear weapons in a country in which Amercian army personnel were next door to, and not make the rest of the world decide that for the sake of a couple of scuds they would use a nuclear deterrent.

Well, phew, good thing we didn't use nuclear arms against the Argentinians, then wasn't it? I wonder how 'forgiving' the Americans would have been then?

Actually while were on that subject...what did America do for the UK durin the Falklands conflict? Arn't we your allies too? Frankly, we have done a hell of a lot more than the Israelies have for your country in terms of international shoulder to shoulder posturing.  Don't see you pouring millions of dollars into our economy.

Crap argument...do better next time.




Ravs

You missunderstand. Israel could have wiped out Iraq on it's own with conventional forces, and they had every right to attack Iraq after Saddam launched missles into Israel.....which is what Saddam wanted.

Israel trusted their security to the US and the Allies in order to avoid a possible Arab fury over Israel and the US attacking Iraq. They stayed out to help the situation.

And the Falkkands? I don't recall the UK ever asking or needing our help there.

As far as pouring billions into your economy ??? I'm sure if the UK were in need of that for it's very survival, we'd do whatever was needed to ensure you survived.

Really not a fair compairison on many of your points in my opinion.

[ravells]

Nuke...you forgot the [/b] ! ah ok edited!


I'm sorry, Israel could not have wiped out Iraq with its conventional forces... they just did not have the numbers over a widely disperesed area.

The point that was being made was that the billions being poured into Israel was somehow ... worth it.

Do you know what? (and I'm with Muck here) If someone chooses to go and plant their flag in a different country, then good for them. That is where their allegience lies. The thing about the US / Isreal realtionship is that you have American citizens (who are really Israelis in their loyalties) who are making your tax payers pour money down a black hole because they have the influence to make it happen.

Ravs

[ravells]

Actually we did ask for your help and you did give us Sattelite information.

so.........thank you.

We did the rest ourselves.

Ravs

[edit] pour millions into our dental health [edit]

[ravells]

Anyway...if you are going to pour billions into a country do it where the people are starving and really need it.

Ravs

[Drunky]

Originally posted by Capt. Pork
They're leaders in medical, genetic and microprocessor research. They produce more internationally significant scientific minds than all the other middle Eastern Countries combined.

NO WAR FOR MEDICAL, GENETIC AND MICROPROCESSOR RESEARCH

Hahahahaha...I couldn't resist.