Author Topic: Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?  (Read 1246 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2004, 07:48:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan


Protest marches, sit ins and demonstrations by the Palestinians are not going to make Israelis forgo that superior right.

If you want to talk about peaceful protest, I'd point to the Dalai Lama. The Tibetans have run a very successful propoganda campaign against Chinese occupation, and after decades they have got precisely nowhere.


And bombing busses will get them what?

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2004, 08:08:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
If Palestinians were 10% of the population of Israel, they would already have equal rights, and there wouldn't be an issue.
...

The problem is, when you take the population of the West Bank and Gaza into account, there are now roughly the same number of Palestinians as Jews.



Okay, see if I have this right... non violent civil disobedience can only work when, like american blacks, the oppressed population is only 10% or when like India, 98% of the population.

In between it won't work.

Civil disobedience works when the information gets out to the general population of the world so popular opinion can flourish.  I do not remember the last foreign correspondent report from Lhasa.  hence it does not work in Tibet until free flow of information exists.

It cannot work in Israel / Palestine becuse the PLO has already poisoned the waters with years of terror.  Had CD been the tactic from the get go, Palestine would be fact not fantasy.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2004, 08:15:47 PM by Holden McGroin »
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Nashwan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1864
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2004, 08:35:25 PM »
Quote
And bombing busses will get them what?


A place in hell if there's any justice in the world.

Unfourtunately, terrorism got Gerry Adams a place in the government of Northern Ireland, it got Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin the prime ministership of Israel, it got De Valera the prime ministership of Ireland, it got Arafat the Nobel peace prize (and vast amounts of money).

These are only a few examples, I'm sure if you trawl through Africa Asia and South America you will find many, many more.

Alan Dershowitz, who is a fanatical supporter of Israel , wrote a book called Why Terrorism Works. Here's a reply he gave in an interview about it:

Quote
I gave a speech the other night in front of 500 people. I asked the people how many of them favored a Palestinian state living side by side with Israel. I think every person in the audience raised their hand. Then I asked how many people favor a Kurdish state. People looked at me like I was crazy. Then I asked how many people favored an Armenian state inside of Turkey. Same thing. Then I asked how many people favor an independent Tibet? A few hands went up. How many people favor an independent Basque state? How many people favor a Chechen state? People didn't know what I was talking about. Everybody knows of the plight of the Palestinian people. And yet when you put the Palestinian situation in comparison to, say, the Kurds, the Tibetans and the Armenians, those claims are certainly no greater. In fact, they're probably considerably lower; the Tibetans have been under occupation for a far longer time period, there are many, many more of them, and they've never been offered a state. The Palestinians were offered a state in 1948 and they turned it down. They could have had a state between 1948 and 1967 and they turned it down. They were offered a state at Camp David and they turned it down.

So when you do any kind of a moral comparison, you ask yourself, why has the Palestinian cause leapfrogged over all other causes? Why has the pope met with Arafat seven times and never met with a Kurdish leader or an Armenian leader? It's a reflection of the success of Palestinian terrorism. Now, that doesn't mean that it's the only way of achieving success; my own personal view is that the Palestinians would have actually achieved a state had they engaged in civil disobedience, Martin Luther King-like. But they opted for the tactic of terrorism and for them it has worked. In the book, I quote Palestinian leaders who say that they were surprised at how well it worked.


I don't like terrorism. I wish it didn't work. But, like war, I think it does. Kill enough people, and threaten to kill more, and you often get your way.

Not always, and there are far more dead terrorists than successful terrorists, but in certain circumstances terrorism works.

Quote
If Israel was perceived in America as jack booted thugs stepping on puppies, do you think we would still veto?


The IRA was a terrorist group operating in a democracy. They were comprised of men who had the vote, full political and legal rights, and were engaged in murdering people in Americas oldest ally.

They were feted in America, their leaders invited to the Whitehouse, convicted murderers led St Patricks day parades and talked of the "oppression" they'd suffered that had led them to kill.

Now if the Irish voice in America could get that sort of support for a terrorist group against a democracy, that was also America's strongest ally to boot, I can't see the Jewish voice having much trouble with a bunch of Arabs.



Gerry Adams, leader of a terrorist group that murdered close to 2000 people, in one of his many meetings with US presidents.

Offline Nashwan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1864
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2004, 08:44:53 PM »
Quote
Okay, see if I have this right... non violent civil disobedience can only work when, like american blacks, the oppressed population is only 10% or when like India, 98% of the population.

In between it won't work.


No, civil disobedience can work when it's effects are great enough, and the aims not too unobtainable.

Blacks in America didn't have that much leverage, but allowing equal rights wasn't that difficult for the US. It was more difficult for some states, but do you think if, say, Alabama had been an independent country, peaceful protest would be so effective? If there hadn't been federal authorities to impose things from above? Equal rights for blacks had very few negatives for most of the US, so was an easy thing to grant.

In the case of India, Britain could not rule without the consent of the Indians. We simply didn't have the manpower to do so. Civil disobedience had far more impact, and even in India the intention was to move towards independence anyway.

For the Palestinians, they don't have the numbers to mount truly effective civil disobedience, and their goals require Israel ceases to be a Jewish state, or gives up a lot of land Israelies believe is theirs by religious and moral right.

Offline AKcurly

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1509
Re: Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2004, 12:23:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
 [/B]


Sounds like you've been re-reading "Sum of All Fears" by Tom Clancy, Grun.  

I have to admit, the concept makes sense.  Nothing would swing US public opinion faster than the "no violence and failure to cooperate" in my opinion.  The Palestinians are a publicist's nightmare - The Palestinians are the Palestinians worst enemy.  It's not like they fear death.

curly

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2004, 12:45:36 AM »
No such thing as a Palestinian, unless you consider the Jews and Arabs both Palestinian, simply because that's what the British put down as a name on a map to designate that area.

So Palestinians are Jews and Arabs in reality. Isn't that ironic?

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Re: Re: Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2004, 12:47:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKcurly
Sounds like you've been re-reading "Sum of All Fears" by Tom Clancy, Grun.  

I have to admit, the concept makes sense.  Nothing would swing US public opinion faster than the "no violence and failure to cooperate" in my opinion.  The Palestinians are a publicist's nightmare - The Palestinians are the Palestinians worst enemy.  It's not like they fear death.

curly


Considering I never read any such book, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Is it some sort of insult? ;)

But yea you're right. I have this image of calm, steady palestenians locked arm in arm walking slowly up to an IDF tank or checkpoint. No rock throwing, no anger, no noise just humanity.
Invite a camera crew, repeat day after day and there would be nothing the israelis could do...

Offline AKcurly

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1509
Re: Re: Re: Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2004, 01:12:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Considering I never read any such book, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Is it some sort of insult? ;)

But yea you're right. I have this image of calm, steady palestenians locked arm in arm walking slowly up to an IDF tank or checkpoint. No rock throwing, no anger, no noise just humanity.
Invite a camera crew, repeat day after day and there would be nothing the israelis could do...


Oh, no insult, Grun.  That's exactly what they did in Clancy's book.  Well, actually they were trying to prevent the Israelis from rebuilding an old synagogue where an old Mosque was built.  Anyway, they locked arms and sang "We shall overcome."

They were fortunate in that an American news crew was there and captured an Israeli soldier shooting an unarmed man in the face with a rubber bullet.

Now, the book of course is fiction, but it's a powerful idea.

curly

Offline Pei

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1903
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2004, 01:35:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
No such thing as a Palestinian, unless you consider the Jews and Arabs both Palestinian, simply because that's what the British put down as a name on a map to designate that area.

So Palestinians are Jews and Arabs in reality. Isn't that ironic?


The area had been refered to asl Palestine or "the Holy Lands" for centuries. It has a distinct culture and traditon of it's own just like Egypt or Saudi. If that was the case then one must be able to argue that there should be no distinct US state because the US is the same as the Brits and the Canucks and the other English speaking peoples.

The idea that "there is plenty of land in the middle east so they bugger off elsewhere" is bollocks because:


a) while there is plenty of land most of it is crap and much worse than what they once had.

b) on a personal level they used to own the land that was taken from them. Think about it: you and your family live in a house or a farm for generations. Then someone from miles or even continents away comes and takes it from you by force because they have a holy book that says that land is theirs. Do you 1) meakly walk off knowing that their religion is right or 2) get very angry indeed?

The whole point of the "go elsewhere it doesn't matter" argument is to make people feel better about supporting a state that oppresses people on the basis of language, culture and religion.

The massive flaw in the argument is plain to see if you put yourself in their shoes.

With civil disobedience the difficulty is that the only thing the palestinians provide to Isreal now is labour and many need the wages it provides to live.  Also the '40s in India and the '60s in the US have something in common that is not true for the Palestinians now: the state was not willing to use massive violence to suppress protest . The nature of the conflict now (which is the fault of both parties, even if the root cause is not) means that any mass protest might be met with guns and rockets. Even given all that I think civil disobedience is the only way for them to go: they seem to lack the polical maturity and the leadership for it though.

Violence gained the Palestinians recognition for their cause: it became an issue with the powerful only after the '70s. Further violence gains them nothig now, and only serves to justfiy more walls, security checks and assassinations.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2004, 01:38:22 AM by Pei »

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2004, 01:37:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
Unfourtunately, terrorism got ... Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin the prime ministership of Israel


BS. It was the holocaust.

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2004, 01:38:28 AM »
Pei, the Jews are the only people that ever had a nation there.

There is no such race as a "Palestinian" No such nation in history known as "Palestine" and no "Palestinian culture ever in history.

And in modern times, the area was almost desolate, inhabited by a few Jews and Arabs. It was a wasteland pretty much.... only Jew and Arab nomads lived their in modern times, so the land being desirable is a joke.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2004, 01:40:48 AM by NUKE »

Offline Pei

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1903
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2004, 01:43:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
BS. It was the holocaust.


So those British soldiers being shot at and blown up in Palestine was just a dream....

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2004, 01:45:48 AM »
The Jews are the only race and nation that was removed from the area..... by the Romans.

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2004, 01:47:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pei
So those British soldiers being shot at and blown up in Palestine was just a dream....


No, but they had nothing to do with the desicion to create Israel.

Offline Pei

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1903
Why cant the Palestinians figure this out?
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2004, 02:01:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Pei, the Jews are the only people that ever had a nation there.

There is no such race as a "Palestinian" No such nation in history known as "Palestine" and no "Palestinian culture ever in history.

What has race got to do with nationhood (pop-quiz #1 what race are you?)?
There is a distinct culture based on Palestine being the the location of many holy sites for various religions, with many places of learning. It has also been the centre of a clash of cultures that has left and indelible mark on the people and thier history.
As to the no nation part as I have said before there are many examples of nations existing where non existed before :
e.g
India
Pakistan

and of course
the USA

People have a right to self-determination. If not then your country owes mine 200 odd years of back taxes (you can send the check via me if you like).




Quote
Originally posted by NUKE

And in modern times, the area was almost desolate, inhabited by a few Jews and Arabs. It was a wasteland pretty much.... only Jew and Arab nomads lived their in modern times, so the land being desirable is a joke.


Complete and utter bollocks.
This isn't the desert interior of Arabia: it's the mediterranean. It wasn't populated by rag clothed nomads driving their camels from place to place.
 Apart from some mountain areas there have been towns farms and villages there since the time when people in my country were living in caves.
Jaffa (Tel Aviv), Hebron, Bethlehem, and above all Jerusalem have been population centres since ancient times.  The countrside has been heavily farmed for thousands of years. The area has always been one of the most heavily populated areas of what we now called the middle-east.
Palestinians owned and ran farms, shops and workshops before 1947/8, some still do though others have had thier property seized by settlers or the Israeli state.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2004, 02:05:20 AM by Pei »