Reversals

[MaddogJoe]

I have worked on Wldthings reversal, and I'm getting better at, tho not yet as good as he The trouble I run into, is highspeed runs on my 6 when I'm high speed.

I fly the 38 alot and love its zoom properties, and tho I'm getting better in one on ones we all know if ya don't finish it quick it ends up as 5 on 1 in the MA  

In most cases, I'm keeping my 38 fast and using vertical maneuvers to get my enemy to give me the shot I need. However There is alway that high dot that shows up in the middle of the fight. Either I disengage, and run to regain alt to fight the new attacker or the poorer choice, stay in too long on the first to finish him fast then go for the second. This gets me into a possition where I'm fast, but the enemy is just a bit faster making the "WldThing" move not a real option as any turn I make at that speed, so can most.

So when I get greedy, and get myself stuck in this situation, what would you do?

[humble]

I'm downloading wldthngs rev clip as I'm typing (internet awful slow today)...anyway without looking at specifically what he's doing I've found that drex's "theory of energy convergance" thingy works almost all the time...obviously it has some limits but if the enemy plane is a bit faster and coming from a bit higher it'll get you out of dodge (1st time around) almost 100% of the time. someone should have a link to the specific article somewhere...

I've posted 4 or 5 films that demonstrate it pretty well, I use it pretty well in clip 2 and 3 in la-5 thread...also in F6, Hog and FM-2 clips somewhere here...FM-2 clip is a pretty pure reversal...bag a greedy la-7 before he can even get out of range...others more defensive in nature...deny the shot, eat up angles and E and move em from there fight to mine....certainly not up to wldthngs standard but pretty easy stuff for most to duplicate.

[humble]

Just got done watching wldthngs highlight reel:)....obviously some exceptional stuff...certainly beyond my ability to combine SA,ACM and gunnery...not to mention typing...all at once.

A couple observations though...

1st, the 2 closest examples to your question  are lugs p40 and the 152...both times wldthng has a more optimal setup for what he wants to do...greater speed differential and a more optimal plane...the rest is really great furballing.

He's using a similiar technique but it's really a different application (wldthng or anyone else correct me here if I'm wrong) he's more offensive...he's going nose down a bit (but not always) as he generates an offensive barrel role attack...I'm curious if he'd do the same thing in a 38 there (and get equal results).

Your specifiying your in a high speed fight (at moderate alt) being engaged by another highspeed con coming in). The 38 at high speed is less able to evade then the spit (V?) in the clip...before you can kill the other guy you need to make sure he doesnt get a shot. I'd guess your cutting it a bit to fine.

The 38's dive flaps combined with a nose down turn should deny attacker any shot (as long as he is faster and higher and more or less dead 6)...you wont get the same offensive reversal often...but you will get to fly and fight another 30 sec:)...after that it's on you...

[MaddogJoe]

Thanks for your time and info humble.

 I do have a number of your fims on file and have watch them a ton of times. I've also read Drex's comments, but at the time most of the info just flew over my head I did print them out and save them, and now having revisted them, understand what he is saying. To my mind it is almost the same move as WldThing, but both his maneuver and Wldthing's count on a large differance in speed.

When in my 38, or any other of the faster planes, if there is a big differance in speed between me and the enemy...meaning I've been caught with my pants down and have burned alot of "E" and and didn't see the enemy in time..... I can do a version of Drex's or Wldthing's maneuver. I say "version" because I don't have the timing down well enough yet to be doing it right, but for the most part I get get "out of plane" enough to spoil the enemy shot. After doing this for 3 or 4 passes, I can equllize the "E" states and start an attack of my own.

My problem is when I'm doing say 300, at 15k, and I have a bogie closing form my 6. I notice him at 3k out, and at the rate of closure he will be in guns range in 5 or 10 seconds.... closing fast enought that Im not going to out run him, but with not such a big differance in speed that I can force an over shot type maneuver as he'll be able to pretty much do what I can at that speed.

In a 190, I could snap roll, yank, repeat untill the enemy gets out of sync because nothing can keep up with a 190's roll rate. This will get me an angle to pull some seperation

What Im looking for is something like that for a P38, or P51, or P47.  Whats some of the maneuvers you guys use to break an enemy off your tail, and turn the tables on him in a high speed setting?

Thanks again Humble, and keep those films coming !

[bozon]

both the P47 nad P38 have good roll rate at high speed and can bleed E as if they are flying though water instead of air.

you can use this to create the needed speeded difference. This is another thing that Drex's low nose turn can help with - keeping the speed up while creating a small initial angle-off to work with.

The next thing is a loaded barrel roll. in loaded I mean that you are pulling hard on the stick while rolling. In p51/47 you can pull the 1st notch of flaps even at high speeds. The speed will go down from 350-400 to the 200-250 range in an istant. If he chooses to play, you're in a rolling scissors.

keep looking at the bandit (usually high 6 view) while rolling and cut throttle as neccery to loose more speed until he's past your 3/9 line. This is assuming that he wants to play the game - else, unload, roll your lift vector a little ahead of him, full throttle and pull for the snapshot as he blows by (comes out like WldThing's move).

he still has to be out of effective gun range to start with.

This is the only example I have ready. I let the 109F4 close on me thinking it's a G6 or G10. I was shocked to find out the mistake when looking at his spinner 100 yards on my 6...
notice, I'm getting desperate and continue the rolling going downward with flaps extended hoping he can't break the speed like I do.

http://fire.prohosting.com/bozon/p47vs109f4_slow.zip
(left click, then leftclick in the new window)

Bozon

[humble]

Maddog...

did you take a look at the last la-5 clip...it sounds similiar. The
la-7 is out a long way (5.0 or so)...but if I turn and engage him I'm simply creating an "over/under" fight giving him ample opportunity to capitalize on any mistake I make. Since the la-5 is a better plane than the la-7 in every way but top end speed (and he has that already) I let him in...all the way. I'm certainly no where near the same caliber pilot as wldthing but one thing we have in common...well almost...is timing...notice how close he lets em get in that reversal clip...98% of the guys make the right move...at the wrong time.

You cant do anything to evade a shot at long range, what you can to is determine as quickly as possible what fight you want to fight. Using the la-5 clips as a reference (since I pretty much remember em) in clip 1 I'm E fighting...letting the E value slowly equalize (with me on top of course) till I can tangle my tail (thats that "mini rope" I mentioned to savedsaint in other thread) in a verticle "two circle fight"...If I'd of missed I'd of got out of dodge..

You'll see the F6 from the 2nd clip at end of first before I get nikki...obviously last thing I want isfor F6 to force me to turn back into nikki (why I start spraying nikki with bad sight picture..I need to hit him:eek: )....so I know I'm going to immediately go def with F6...I'd guess wldthing would of done the obiwon thing and waxed him on the reversal...as a mere mortal I'm left to my lesser abilities...notice I'm in a nose down turn till he pulls for shot...then up and around ala drex and we start fighting my fight...amazing how many guys wont back off once they pull the trigger....

On the 3rd the la-7 coming in sounds like your issue...i'm lower, slower and dont have a good choice...so I let him in and evade...I didnt win per se...but I survived...again the key is not evading to soon...one thing i learned from wldthings clip is i'm to early on my barrel role by ~150 yds or so...not alot but enough.

[humble]

bozon...wouldnt un zip for me?

[sonar732]

Could someone point to the clips that y'all are talking about?  I flew the 38 when my computer was running... and would love more and more 38 films.

[opus]

What makes those reversals work is the great speed difference. An enemy on your six with just a small advantage in speed is a lot more dangerous. If someone tries one of those reversals on me, I will cut throttle and let the best man win, but I I won't overshoot him by a football field, thats for sure. We'll be close and personal.

Its a judo move. Without the great difference in speed, its less effective and could be suicide with someone competent on the throttle and the gun.  I'm neither, but seek out those types of reversals to get better. Thing is if you're behind and have more E, you are winning. You have all the laws of physics on your side. You just have to make the e difference a knife and not a sledge hammer.

One of those guys makes a pass and sees what he's doing but escapes. The next pass he should have chopped and cleaned his clock.

[WldThing]

Originally posted by humble
He's using a similiar technique but it's really a different application (wldthng or anyone else correct me here if I'm wrong) he's more offensive...he's going nose down a bit (but not always) as he generates an offensive barrel role attack...I'm curious if he'd do the same thing in a 38 there (and get equal results).

Well your close,  but a minor correction..

The reason i dive down before the actual setup is to gain the additional speed before i reverse the fella..  I figure that if he's coming in with a greater amount of Energy aka Speed,  that i need to try to equal the amount.  The reason i dont do it everytime is because,  sometimes i know how fast the guy is actually closing (A weird 6th sense if you must call it that) ..  And i dont require that extra speed.  I hope you understood what i typed here.

[WldThing]

Originally posted by MaddogJoe
My problem is when I'm doing say 300, at 15k, and I have a bogie closing form my 6. I notice him at 3k out, and at the rate of closure he will be in guns range in 5 or 10 seconds.... closing fast enought that Im not going to out run him, but with not such a big differance in speed that I can force an over shot type maneuver as he'll be able to pretty much do what I can at that speed.
 

Basically Nothing if he's closing that fast.  Best thing to do is an ordinary Split - S to avoid his guns,  he should be making a few passes of BnZ sort,  and each pass he makes he will get slower and slower,  you should reverse him when your sure he is slow enough so that you can pull off the reversal.  Id say go with the 3rd BnZ pass he makes,  make sure you bait him onto your 6 and then reverse.  If you see that he is pulling away after making his run dont bother reversing,  save up your E.

[humble]

Wldthing...

thanks, I know exactly what you were saying I just couldnt articulate it properly...utilizing a "similiar action" for a completely different intent. it's clear that your reversal is completely offensive in it's nature ...your manuvering the con into your "kill zone" even while he's "lining you up"...he just doesnt know it...the telltail clue is how close all the planes are to the same spot as you re aqquire them on your front quarter view...uncanny how well you manage the initial variables to consistantly duplicate that same result.

 Having utilized the split-s alot my self I found it tends to generate a vertical double circle fight against a good pilot...he counters the split S with a series of tightening hi yoyo's...basically la-5 clip 1...it's a low % fight for an average pilot fighting the under...the advantage of drex's tactic is you can continue to engage the cons interest a significant percentage of the time and actually change the dynamics of the fight...in both clip 2 and 3 the bogies had total control of the fight but actually surrendered significant advantage during the initial pass.

what particualarly appealing about it is it works with both high and low speed differential equally well...i've used it when speed difference on film showed to be only 10-15 mph....like you said that 6th sense on speed comes in to play...as I understand it within certain peramitors (sp?) the higher speed/e plane simply cant convert from lag to lead without losing that speed and surrendering visability...in fact you are untouchable within that profile...obviously you look like a flaming idiot when you misjudge things:confused:

Thanks again for a great clip...one of the best i've ever seen.

[bozon]

Originally posted by humble
bozon...wouldnt un zip for me?

left click the link, thne left click in the new window.

Bozon

[MaddogJoe]

Thanks for all the info guys. I guess the common factor here... and the one I really seem to be missing... is to nose down to get a bit more speed.

This would help in both Wldthings move... a bit longer on the enemys tail to get the shot after the rversal... and the Drexisum.. to bring the energy state closer to equal.

In the 38 I work most of my moves into the verticle as this is were it excels. I have also found that the flap manever works well to slow the pony and jug down fast... another thing I hate doing, giving up perfectly good "E"

Thanks again guys, back to the practic fields !!  

[humble]

Thanks for all the info guys. I guess the common factor here... and the one I really seem to be missing... is to nose down to get a bit more speed. ...

Actually it's the oppisite maddog (as it relates to drex)...

The bogie has more e to start...by starting a gentle nose down turn the bogie has to follow in a nose down state adding to his E state...as he pulls harder for a shot you tighten your turn and/or throttle back...the con will either black out or lose sight of you under his nose...you then rev the turn and go somewhat vertical...based on the amount of energy convergence you may have a shot similiar to wldthings or you may not. Your using the nose down state to force him to scrub E to avoid the overshoot etc...the better pilots will intuitively go vertical (some kind of hi yoyo) if the evasive is initited to early...you'll notice I let them inside 1500...then slowly turn tighten up as they hit 1200 more at 800 and evade at 600...you need your tail swishing in the water to keep em interested....

Wldthing is optimizing his speed differential vs bogie to produce that constant bogie pop up at ~275 or so (no clue how he does that so consistantly) but he can invariably pick em up in almost the same spot every time on the clip...

Your original Q was what do I do to evade a high speed con closing on my high speed 38 at a rate that precludes my "normal evasives"...

A: initiate a gentle nose down turn as he closes to 1500 yds and tighten incrementally until he breaks off/loses vis/is forced out front. Use tightened turn/throttle/flaps/airbrakes as needed to slow your plane down to force above...